It’s a confusing time for boys, with toxic masculinity a contentious issue. Host Amelia Phillips sits down with Hunter Johnson, CEO of the Man Cave to discuss where toxic masculinity stems from, what the signs are and what we can do to prevent the kids around us from falling prey. They discuss healthy masculinity, redefining the journey to manhood and how to empower boys to become great men.
Below is an unedited transcript of the podcast episode:
I watched a group of young boys, probably about eight years old, playing a bit of rough and tumble on the sand the other day, and there happened to be a similar aged little girl in the group. Now, us parents were up on the balcony having a few wines overlooking the beach where this game was occurring.
It started out as this kind of light and fun game, but I noticed over a few minutes the girls seemed to be the one who was in, you know, being pushed into the middle of the circle where the boys were pushing her around and then, you know, they’d kind of push her down to the ground and a few would jump on her in the sand.
And she was laughing. They were all laughing, but the pushes were getting hard. And harder, and the boys were jumping on her more and more stacks on. So I ended up yelling down to the kids to stop. But it got me thinking, how far would they have gone? How far would they have pushed that game? And why was the girl the main one that was singled out?
And should those boys have been behaving in a more respectful way, even at that young age,
This is helping her with Amelia Phillips. It’s a strange thought, but domestic and sexual abuse perpetrators were boys once, possibly just as sweet as our own boys, but somewhere in their journey to manhood, their views towards women violence or themselves became so distorted. They ended up performing hideous crimes and probably claiming innocence for them as.
So where did this toxic masculinity stem from? What are the signs and what can we do as parents to prevent the kids around us from falling prey? Hunter Johnson is the co-founder and CEO of the Man Cave, a preventative mental health and emotional intelligence charity, which has facilitated over 20,000 school boys through its workshops, its Academy Digital and research programs, which are all designed to empower boys to become great men.
Hunter is such a fascinating. With a background in emotional intelligence facilitation and social entrepreneurship, his work has led him to speak around the world, including in the uk, where he was named by the Queen, like literally by the Queen. A 2018 Queen’s Young Leader Hunter, has been recognized as a finalist for the 2020 Young Australian of the Year Awards in Victoria.
And a 2018 winner of the EY Social Entrepreneur of the Year Award. Hunter, what a privilege it is to speak to you today. Hi, Milia. So excited to be here with you. How would you describe toxic masculinity and what are the signs that certain boys might be falling prey to it? It’s a pretty loaded term, isn’t it?
Toxic masculinity. Oh my goodness. Very negative. And you know, pretty divisive too. So I think I’ll start with what it’s not. So we’re not saying masculinity is toxic. I think that’s the first thing. Okay. I think often, you know, we find this working, you know, on the front line with hundreds of boys every week, that they feel unfairly judged.
Cause in their world, in their lives, their struggles have been really hard to them, and suddenly they’re now being labeled as toxic. Yeah, I get that. When they’ve stepped into a script of masculinity, that we as their parents, their role models as society has given them. And they’re suddenly the ones in trouble.
Yeah. So it’s, it’s quite a confusing time for, even as us as adults, let alone, you know, developing mind of a, a teenage boy. So I think that’s the first thing. We’re not saying all masculinity is toxic, but when we’re talking about toxic masculinity specifically we’re saying there are certain attitudes, beliefs that are probably a little outdated and very traditional.
That are very limiting and narrow for the masculine experience. So some of the, the qualities would be very misogynistic behavior, very homophobic behavior, uh, emotional repression, rigid gender norms. Traditionally big believers in power and entitlement, and also at some points very ignorant to their own privilege.
And I think that’s the really interesting thing in this whole conversation is, Privilege is invisible to those who have it. Yeah. And so that’s kind of the, the bigger journey is how do you educate particularly young men that they’re a part of a system that they’ve inherited. And by being in that system and having, you know, this, how would I say it?
A almost like a backpack of unearned assets that help you get through the world. That you’re not a bad person for having that. But now that we’ve cultivated some self-awareness in you, are you gonna be someone that chooses to contribute to systems of inequality or chooses to challenge them? And you know, every time we’ve done that with the teenage boys, we’ve created an environment that had psychological safety.
They’ve stepped in and above and beyond, wanna be amazing young men. That’s incredible and I can’t wait to get to our chat in a moment around how you actually do that. Cuz I’m so fascinated. I just imagine you walking in a room of, you know, anywhere from 20 to 150 boys, all you know chess proud, and how you break that down and break that through for them.
I’ve heard you. Talk about replacing toxic masculinity with healthy masculinity. Can you describe your views and your ideas of what healthy masculinity is? Yeah, I can. I think the, the common I’ll also say about toxic masculinity is, the way that I’ve really started to think about it is it’s more generational trauma.
And if we think about the models of manhood that we’ve got right now that are present in society, yeah, it’s very much the post. World War II Man, which is to be strong. Be stoic. Yeah. Deal with it yourself. Be the provider. Yep. She’ll be right mates. Bottle up your feelings, bottle it up, you know, have another, you know, whiskey by the fire.
Yeah. Wow. It’s like, you know, we laugh, but that’s the marketing that, the stories that we’re being told, whether it’s. You know, on Netflix or the narratives we hear in public discourse, and so I just wanted to add that in. It’s like, yeah, if we look at it through the lens of hurt people hurt people. Really?
Yeah. And so it’s, if we come back that these are boys or men doing the best with the tools they have. And we’re at a point in time where we need to evolve, that we need to shed some of the, the, the models around being a man that we’ve inherited and create a new rule for what it means to be a masculinity.
And for me, that lies in authenticity. So having your own values, your own moral compass that aligns to what’s the person you wanna be, irrespective of your gender that you identify with. And so for me, you know, if we wanna label the buzzword healthy masculinity in there, I’m happy to roll with that.
Mm-hmm. , and, and for me, that’s just the qualities of a flourishing human. You know, they have resilience, they have adaptability, they have kindness, they have generosity. Some days they can be really stoic and strong. The next day they can shed a tear and be vulnerable and ask for help. Yeah, it’s really about range and how do we create pockets of environments where boys can develop their range, where you know, they might need to really hold themselves strong.
You know, the next moment they might need to let some emotion out. The way, again, the language we use is developing the emotional muscle. Yeah. So I don’t just go to the gym and suddenly I looking beach fit. You know, it takes time and time again. Similar to riding a bike, learning a new language, our emotional range is very similar.
And what we do with the mag, particularly with teenage boys, is give them language, uh, to first of all self-identify with how they’re. And there might develop empathy for others and be able to support others. So let’s talk about how they are feeling. Mm. You’re like a walking research project. Do you get to, I mean, you’ve been in front of 20,000 boys so far, I’m sure that number’s growing every week.
What are some of the common pain points and issues that they’re struggling with? Well, it’s a very confusing time to be a man. You know, on one hand, again, society is showing us through the stories that we tell our young. Be strong and be stoic, be the provider. But now the other narrative is there, you know, which is be vulnerable, cry more often, give up some of your power, um, your privilege, so you don’t deserve that opportunity again, if we’re adults trying to navigate that, it’s, it’s confusing even hearing you saying that now, like, how does a teenage boy.
Coming into manhood, navigate that. Plus he’s just gone from being the king of the classroom in year six to being, you know, the small fish in the big pond in year seven and up, and he’s navigating all those other massive changes of high school. And that’s the challenge. You know, if you think about high school as well, it’s about a social hierarchy.
And as much as it’s scary to admit it, it’s about surviving that social h. And so often what we find with these teenage boys, particularly in the earlier years, they trade their authenticity for attachment. What do you mean by that? To the group? So with the, the developing teenage brain, what we’ve found is that all they want to do is belong.
Yeah. Whether they’re conscious of it or not. And so at times if they step into their authentic self and that gets rejected, Oh that hurts. That hurts. Like that moment in class where you know you’re bold enough to put your hand up and the teacher comes to you, you say the wrong thing, everyone laughs at you.
Oh, what do you learn in that moment? Yeah, don’t put your hand up. And so we see that play out in social situations in high school all the time. And so, Again, you’ve got, you know, developing minds, developing bodies, a school culture which they step into as these, you know, innocent boys at age 12, but they’re suddenly thrust into an environment with 18 year olds who are making adult-like decisions, probably from the age of 14, if we’re honest.
Yeah. And you’ve got a child trying to find his identity inside of all of that, when you know the parents are probably working really hard, teachers are overworked, under-resourced, and they only really have transactional relationships. With their students, and suddenly we’ve got these teenage boys who are now being labeled as toxic.
And so we we’re starting to see a massive backlash from these boys who don’t understand that when they’re, the labeling of toxic masculinity comes in, that they’re associating their identity to that. And so they feel confused. And when they feel confused, they feel attacked. And when they feel. They rebel and they push back.
Yeah. Or they retreat and become reclusive or, you know, disappear into their rooms or into their games or their screens or whatever. Do you see that? Do you see that you’ve got the child that kind of, you know, they’ve lost their sparkle and disappeared, or you’ve got the bully or the, the rebellious one that is the one that says, Well, hang on a minute, You know, it isn’t fair.
And that’s where you start to see some of those more fringe and extreme groups form. Yeah, like in, in a man cave context, we’ve spending so much time with groups, we’re able to kind of distinguish the group dynamics and, and understand, you know, the, the different archetypes that we’re gonna encounter in a classroom setting.
Yeah. So there might be, what are they, The jock that you know, who just wants power. That is the king of banter, that, um, you know, doesn’t want like authority, but we know if we can, You know what we’ll call like flip the alpha. Yeah. If we get the alpha on side and challenge them and mobilize their leadership skills for good, then they take the group with them.
But there might also be the kid who’s the quiet observer. Who’s the introvert, but you know, when you ask them a question, they’ll drop some gold. Yeah. All the way to the kid who’s the oversharer, in where you wore kidney. You’re like, Man, this kid is awesome. Like, yeah, keep coming back to him. And then you just realize that it’s just a train and you, you just have to go.
Okay. I love how your brain works, mate, but I’m just gonna share it around to the group today. And you know, just to put in context, we’ve had stories of, you know, boys who we’ve been warned about saying, you know, if he’s a bad kid, if he’s any trouble, just kick him out. It’s fine. Oh, and we walk in and you know these, the only kid who’s not in school uniform, he’s got a rat talent.
He’s sucking on, kind of smells like smoke a bit. He’s 14 and going, Oh my God, I actually remember at this school in Lilydale. And um, this kid, we’ll call him Declan, walk in, exactly that kid. And, uh, one of our facilitators was introducing himself and Deklan just yells out. Gay as loud as you can hear it, you’re joking, hits off the whole room like boys.
And the best thing about working with tenant boys is they have the best bullshit detectors in the world. . So they’ll sniff you out a mile away. Yeah. Um, they sniff fear a mile away. Oh yeah. So if you show any of that, they’ll jump at it, but they also respect courage and authenticity. Okay. And so this guy yells out gay as loud as he can.
The room kick. And uh, one of our facilitators, it kind of triggered him a bit cuz he was called gay in high school. Yeah, right. So I remember just jumping in and being like, Hey man, my guess is your name is Declan. Would that be right? ? Anyway, the whole crowd burst out laughing the boys and we come back to him and go.
My guess is that you’re a bit of a troublemaker. You probably get kicked out all the time. People probably don’t mess with you. You’re a bit of a tough guy. Is that fair? And he’s kind of sitting there and goes maybe, and everyone laughs around him. I just go. But my other bet is you probably have enormous leadership potential and you probably use that for entertainment purposes most of the time.
And today I’m gonna give you a chance to flex that muscle, that leadership potential in a completely different way. In fact, who’d like to see that side of Declan, you know, 49 hand got in the angle, there’s your invitation, pal. And over the course of the day, he opens up about his life story. You know, his dad suicide a year earlier.
So he dropped outta school for eight months outta smoking weed started then getting into the heaviest stuff. His mom kicked him. Got taken to juvie, mom took him outta juvie, went to rehab. They gave him pills for his, a ADHD that made him anxious. So they gave him pills for his anxiety. He was on 10 pills a day.
Got off that Eight months later, he’s now back in the classroom sitting next to 14 year olds who haven’t yet hit puberty. And this kid has lived like a rockstar’s life. Wow. And this is the first time that he’s been ever able to share that story. And it’s a showstopper. So suddenly these boys. You know, judged him or he’s judged them sitting there with tears in their eyes.
He shares his story and I go, Who knew this about Declan? No hands in the air. And I go, Who’s got enormous respect for this guy right now? 49 hands go in the air. And I look at his teachers in the background and their jaws are dropped. Wow. And I go, They didn’t know any of that either. Cause they’re judging the kids.
Not on the person, but cause of his behavior. Yep. And he’s doing the best with what he’s got. Drop sheet. Anyway, we come back, we have multiple sessions with that school and you know, we come back and he’s now in leadership positions at the school cuz he was finally given a chance to be seen. And it’s like, how do we create pockets like that of authenticity where people can share their story?
Where the kid who is the bully, or you know, the nerd or whatever labor we want to give, actually get to show their authentic self. And the courage inside of that gets rewarded by the. That becomes the new culture and we just don’t see that often in high school cuz they’re so busy trying to keep their masks on trying to survive and stay in the social hierarchy.
It surprises me with these kids, they can have spent years and years in the same friendship circles, but they’ve never actually had authentic conversations with each other. Absolutely. We countless times, I could tell you. You know, boys have been like, this bloke’s been my best mate for five years, and I just learnt more about him in five minutes.
And often what we find is, first of all, boys have the deeply rich emotional lives, but they’re just seeking either the permission, the language, or the space to lean into it. Yeah. The safety, You know, as you said earlier, not to be ridiculed or laughed at when they do have a vulnerable. Also if there is laughter because it’s so unfamiliar for the group, not making people wrong about it and it’s going, yeah, it’s, We kind of laugh because we are nervous, we don’t have conversations like this.
So next time my invitation to you was just try catch that laughter cuz what might be the impact on that young man who’s just shared something really powerfully. So suddenly there’s a teachable moment in that opposed to you’re naughty, don’t do that. And then, you know, as teenagers, if you’re told not to do something, what do you.
You go and do it. Yeah, of course, , of course. That’s what their brains are designed to do. That’s what I did growing up. As a parent, how can we, I mean, your program is just so transformational as a parent. What cues and learnings can we take from your program that we can bring home and support our teenage boys with?
Yeah, the ultimate thing is be a role model. It’s do your own personal work and you know, that’s even a privilege to be able to reflect on yourself like that. But it’s, it comes down to it because we can tell our kids all the wisdom in the world, but they’ll mimic what they see. And so I think. Being a role model, owning your insecurities, your where you’ve been inauthentic, but also things that you’re proud of.
And so I think starting at home, the family values are incredibly important. And even introducing language around family values. You know, I think about I was a pretty naughty kid and I No, Yeah, you have such a cheeky smile. I can , can you imagine? Yeah. I was like, Declan, like, you know. Well, I love on your website, on the man cave on, You’re about Paige.
You’ve got your photo of you now. But I love with all your team members, you’ve also got there, um, childhood school photos. I was like, That’s it. That is a face of a chicken . I know. I think even in that bind, it says, uh, I got 27 detentions in one year, including a detention whilst on de. Have you apologized to your mother?
I have. I also, the year after school, I actually sent an email to all my teachers. , I’m sorry. And Thank you. You know, but, but that’s the, the beauty, like I just, you know, and this comes back to a lot of the people that work with us, we like. We just wish we had someone that could sit us down and go, Yeah, how see the track you’re going on and it kind of makes sense, but also I know there’s so much more for you and yeah, I’m gonna be that non-authoritative figure that can kind of just open the door, hold space for you, challenge you in a really loving and constructive way and support you to get to whatever it is you want to achieve.
But back to your question around parents. Yes, Yes. I think particularly teenage boys or you know, kind of that emerging tween. Sharing of your personal stories of what life was like when you were their age is incredibly important. Can I just jump in here? Both moms and dads? Yes. So we’re talking about boys, but it’s equally important for moms and dads to do this.
Yes, absolutely. And the most important thing about this is it’s not about giving advice. Mm-hmm. or philosophizing or anything of that nature. Okay. The wonderful thing about a story that you can tell a story to a five year old, 15 year old, 55, 95 year. Is that the person receiving that story can extract a certain set of principles, lessons, and morals that are relevant to their life stage.
And so that cue, that seed that’s planted might grow 10 years later, but that’ll be a moment in time that’ll be relevant to the life experience of that person. So when you’re sharing a story, just shared genuinely, what was your life like when you were 13? What did you struggle with? What was your relationship with your parents like?
And then again, the caveat being. Come back and say, and that’s why they’ll get the bit they need to get. Okay. The next piece for me is, um, often this generation know they’re very loved because, um, their parents’ generation didn’t get told they were loved a lot, and so they get smothered with love. One of the most powerful things that you can tell a young person this generation is you’re proud of them.
Okay. And you’re proud of not what they’ve done, but you’re proud of who they are as a person. Yeah, that’s a really clear distinction that I know I personally struggle with. For some reason, I’m always. Rewarding achievements of my kids and I catch myself doing it. You’ve gotta find you’re proud of the person they are.
But I, I struggle with that. I’m like, Oh, okay. in that moment. Okay, what can I be proud about? Like when, you know, they come home with an award or they’ve done a great achievement, it’s so easy. Yeah. But you are saying it’s got to be something that. Authentic to them rather than something that they have done.
It’s, and it’s their traits as a person, you know? And I think the, the distinction there is, are we validating their performance? Are validating their person. Yeah. Okay. And it’s, you know, their kindness, their generosity. Yeah. You know, I saw how you looked after your sister the other day. I just wanna say I love that part of you.
It’s just such a gift. And also my invitation is if you know that’s something you do, name that with them. You know, it’s, and that’s the power of authenticity is when we are a. Yeah. You know, it’s the Brene Brown thing. It’s like vulnerability brings connection and connection builds trust and purpose. And so it’s like, you know, hey, my child’s name.
I’ve noticed that when I’m, you know, wanting to say nice things to you, I’m saying it about your performance, but I really wanna say it about who you are. And by the way, I love you and that’s what I wanna get better at. Yeah. You know, like, that’s just such a, If I heard that as a kid, I don’t, My parent is awesome, but the most powerful thing about that is that becomes a moment when they are a.
That they reflect back on. Yep. And that’s the thing about values. They come and kind of flourish at different points in our life.
I wanna touch on what you said earlier about being a good role model. Mm. That scares me. Yeah. . Because 90% of the way us parents behave is intuitive. Mm. Uh, we don’t even realize we’re doing it. What are. Little quick warning signs that we might just catch ourselves, Oh, we’re falling prey to that 1950s, you know, toughen up mentality.
You know, I’m gonna throw a really obvious one out there. It’s like, don’t be a crybaby. Mm. For example. Yeah. Is it just kind of just observing your. Language, like how do we, I might be doing it, not even realize I’m doing it, or my husband, who my husband fits that alpha male personality. He went to a competitive all boys boarding school.
He was in the first for basketball. Like he fits that personality type. What if he’s. Offloading all that generational trauma onto the children and that that’s why we are in the position we are in . You know, whether it’s, honestly, if we look at the data, whether it’s mental health or family violence, it’s because the stories we’ve inherited and the conditioning we’ve inherited Yeah.
Is resulting in such a high rates of mental illness, such high rates of sexual abuse, such high rates of family. Like, I don’t know what bigger call to action we need. I a hundred percent agree than our child wellbeing. Yeah. Like if that is not a big enough wake up call, like I don’t know what more we can do.
And so I think it’s, as you know, someone who’s in a partnership with someone, it’s, you’ve gotta find someone who can grow together. And it’s important to find someone where you can go to the edge, but can also come back to the center and you’ve got that trust and. If you can support each other to go to your own edges, you know, look at your life story.
What were the core stories that you told yourself about yourself or the way to the stories that you’ve inherited around what it means to be a successful person given where you’ve come from and going, Is that actually truthfully who I am? Or is that what got given to me and what’s it gonna take for me to go back on my own?
So we’ve talked about influences at school, we’ve talked about some influences at home. What about some cultural influences in relation to healthy masculinity? I’m thinking particularly around advertising and the historical messaging that boys have got around advertising. I know you’ve recently launched a new brand.
Tell me the reasoning behind it and why you’ve done it. Sure. So we would run these and still do run. Unbelievable experiences with boys. They’d walk in as like these kind of stiff zombies and they’d walk out free and authentic and just expressed, and then we’d noticed that they’d go back to an environment, you know, on their phones or gaming or whatever it was, and suddenly we’re just inundated with, you know, a lot of violence, a lot of misogyny, very sexualized advertising.
I’m like, how does that still exist in 2021? I know what is going. And we also, you know, man cave’s a charity. So we started to think what would it look like to create a product that aligns to the man Cave’s values that was a separate. That could also create a new funding stream for the man cave, but could also be a product that could use the power brand and consumerism to positively influence this new healthy masculinity that we’re all seeking in 2021.
So started to think when, you know, I was a 10 inch boy. I was getting hairier, I was getting smellier. Links, deodorant, links. Africa is the go-to. Yes. still dominate. My first boyfriend wore at, Yep. It still dominates. It’s still, still, I’m like, first of all, that is an achievement, like okay to be that smell for that long.
But you know, the advertising that we grew up with, you know, you spray yourself in a flock of gorgeous women come chasing you down the road and it’s like, We laugh at that, but that is what’s been given to our 11 and 12 year old boys. Yeah, it’s just like while we’re setting our kid up very subtly, you know, and this advertising, the behavior around that is the building blocks to objectification.
Because suddenly if you spray yourself, you know the women will come chasing you and we wonder where entitle. Is born. So for us, we’re like, let’s create a new personal care brand that’s purpose driven. So has the man cave as a large shareholder in it, but also used amazing natural ingredients and had fun with marketing, you know, like dancing and free and expressed.
And so we’ve just launched this brand, it’s called stuff and it’s like stuff for your pits, stuff for your face, stuff for your head and body. We’re about to, I. A moisturizer and a, a stuff for your MITs, A hand wash, . Uh, and the whole idea is we didn’t want it to be something that was like virtue signaling or showing how woke we were.
Yeah. But just something that was a really quality product that could kind of fill the gap between, you know, your links and your rec and your dove and something like esop. So what’s that kind of middle ground? And so we’ve just launched it about three months ago. It’s been in the wild for three months.
Feedback’s been amazing. People are really receptive of it. And now it’s, um, You know, really kind of taking it to the world and, and getting, hopefully, you know, moms, parents key grocery bars in the house. To, uh, purchase stuff so that it can not only, you know, give healthy products to their kid, but also can support the man cave.
So in, you know, a few years time, some funds kick back in the man cave and we can keep doing what we’re doing and also hopefully shift advertising messaging. Away from some of those more traditional, potentially misogynistic, uh, messaging. Yeah, absolutely. And I think we were just did a, a bit of research recently and showed that like 80% of guys don’t feel represented by what’s going on in the media.
So it’s like, well, there’s a massive mismatch then. 80%. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Well actually 79%, but yeah, around you. I took the extra percent off there, rounded it. But um, yeah, there’s just such an opportunity there, but it’s also uncharted territory. What does it mean to be a good man in 2021? Who are the models we have in public eye that are role modeling?
What we’ve got is our attorney general with allegations of sexual abuse. I know defending his own identity and taking no responsibility. I know it’s like that is their highest office of law and that is the role model we’ve got. And no wonder why we have, you know, Chanel cont tos starting this incredible petition because they’re sick and tired and it’s like, okay, well who can these boys look to?
And that’s why hopefully with the man cave, we just have this diverse group of facilitators who are guys like, you know, First Nations people, former child soldiers, footy jocks, drama. Music kids who have lived the diverse experiences of masculinity that then become accessible role models for, for thousands of boys.
Mm. In the wake of so many sexual abuse allegations in the media, and some of them you mentioned earlier, many boys schools are taking action. However, some of these have mixed results. One school, for example, asked its male students to stand up in assembly, and they were told it was a symbolic gesture of apology for the behaviors of their gender that have hurt or offended girls and women.
But after a backlash, the principal admitted that the exercise had been well intended, but inappropriate. Then you’ve got a Melbourne school where a council youth worker was giving a talk about privilege and ask year 11 boys to stand if they were. Male and Christian, and then told them that they were responsible for being privileged and oppressors.
This too caused a backlash and an apology from the school hunter. How do we navigate the reckoning and the reform that changes boys’ behavior, but without some of them feeling under siege? And what are the risks for not getting that balance right? Yeah, they’re pretty, pretty intense examples, and I think the thing that’s missing for me inside of all of that is any container of psychological safety.
Uh, these boys feel, you know, they’re sitting there in assembly. Yeah. And suddenly they’re now being called to stand up and then being outed for whether they’re conscious of it or not being part of a system that they’ve inherited. Yeah. And there may be a lot of truth in what was shared. . But when the truth is not in a container of psychological safety and these boys don’t understand that they might be complicit in this system, then they check out and they feel attacked.
And you know, this is the delicate debate of the movement right now. You know, hashtag all men, hashtag not all men . You know, And it’s tricky because, In order for us to move forward, I think there’s gotta be different, different activists that play different roles in the movement. Yeah. So it’s really important that Clementine Ford is bloody angry at men.
Yeah. Like she has to play that role. That’s a tiring, tiring role. Mm-hmm. . But if I think about from a man Kate perspective, the way that I would language what we do. Is, we’re like the conscious Trojan horse. Okay. So we come in, we look like them. We have the banter. We know what’s going on in pop culture.
Yeah. You got that relatability with them. Relatability. It’s like that cooler cousin that you Christmas get together. Yeah. That all you wanna do is just sit with them and then to ask you how you’re going. Yeah. Right. And then that, that banter earns the right to have authentic convers. Yeah, because these teachers, if they’re gonna deliver something as pointed as that, they have to have a level of integrity and congruence themselves.
And often what young people see in their teachers, they don’t always see That’s not that. They don’t always see that. And that’s nothing against teachers. Yep. And so for me it’s, it’s a tricky balance because as I said, there might be some truth in what they’ve. Done there. Yep. The intention might be good and true, but that execution has poorly missed the mark.
Yeah. Imagine how you would feel. I’m, I’m just putting myself back in my school assembly, being told to stand up for something that, Hey, I had nothing to do with this. Like, you would straight away get into that defensive and then you walk away either feeling angry, either feeling shameful or feeling confused, so you retreat.
I think the other piece inside of this is that parents, and it’s also really interesting, particularly a lot of moms are really hesitant to putting their sons in an environment where their sons might be susceptible to behaviors that are not aligned with their family values. So we just had a, a interview with the project that just aired recently.
Yeah. Oh, congratulations. And thanks. Yeah. Amazing to get that. Wow. And part of that, we was going to interview teenage boys to just get their unfiltered beliefs. Yeah. What’s going on in the movement? It was so hard to get parents to give their boys permission to speak openly and freely cuz they didn’t want their child to be.
Canceled effectively. Wow. And it’s like, well, that’s the issue in a nutshell, because we see that same thing happening in boardrooms where men are not stepping into this conversation because they’re so fearful of saying something that’s seen as politically incorrect, them getting judged unfairly, and then canceled, and they lose their job.
So what do they do? They don’t contribute and thereby perpetuate the behaviors that we’re trying to eradicate. And it’s tricky because women have carried so much of this movement already, and so it’s almost at times going, Do women have to take another step back? Can men step forward and do their own education?
And I actually just think that’s the answer. There’s this silent majority of guys that want to be good men in today’s society, but they’re trying to find their access points into what that actually looks. But it’s challenging when their social structures of their friendship groups or their work groups or their boardrooms, their culture is in a certain way.
Yeah. And so it’s really risky for them to put their identity on the line to change that culture, because if they do it poorly, then they get kicked outta the group and they’re left in no man’s land. It’s, it’s funny here the whole way through today. Hearing you talking. I was thinking one missing piece we have, is that what you just referred to as cool cousin, is those influencers?
Probably male role models. I think with these young boys, whether it’s the coach, whether it’s an older guy that. You know, might have some kind of relationship with the child that the parents trust them to hang out with, but also is a good person that has values that align. And I think that a lot of parents are hesitant to allow those relationships to form for, for good reasons.
But I think that that has been missing. That mentorship and that’s what your program does. But wouldn’t it be great if we could find those lighthouse young men to support our boys? Absolutely. It’s, you know, the saying it takes a community to raise a child has come from somewhere, and, and it’s absolutely truthful.
And the reality is the community centers that we used to attend on mass, whether. You know, the church, the synagogue, the mosque, the town hall are not attended to the same level as what they were. And we also know that young people are playing less sport than ever before. So where they used to seek their diverse mentorship is now really limited and is, it’s mostly on their phones, if anything.
Yeah. Where they’re on TikTok, where the algorithm’s, just giving them more things that’ll hijack their amygdala. Yeah. And what we see is that when, particularly when they’re 12, 13, 14, they break away from their parents and they seek guidance, mentoring, and identity elsewhere. They need that. That’s it.
Where they used to get it from the uncles, the aunties, and people in community. But now again, we live in such a secular individual society that they’re not getting that. And so how do we, And it comes back to what you’re saying around the Rite Passage. The idea behind the Rite Passage is they get taken away from their family environment, their parental structure by elders taken to go through an initial experience where they let goal of behaviors that are no longer serving.
Then they step into and create their own version of what it means to be a healthy adult. Then the community welcomes them back. Now we’re so hesitant in modern society to put our kids in any environment that challenges their resilience. And so we know that adversity shapes, culture, shapes also their identity and their resilience.
But as parents, we need to give them a bit more leash to step into those environments. Yeah, to find out who they are when no one’s looking. I wish they could make your program part of the curriculum because in in modern society, there is no real clear rite of passage from boys to men. There is. You know, process that that boys went through back in the tribal days where they had to, you know, go out in the wild for three weeks and fend for themselves.
Whatever it is, there is no clear. Defined rite of passage. And I think what you’re doing with the man cave is, is that passage, Are we gonna see this in all the schools? How quickly can you roll out, I know you’re in Victoria, you’re in New South Wales. Yeah. That’s, that’s the game plan. So you’re just rolling out as fast as you can.
Yeah. Well, to be honest, we, we, we just need government support right now. And so we, we, today, we’ve, um, worked with philanthropists and high net worth individuals and we charge schools based on their socioeconomic. And now the next phase is for us, how do we open up the doors for, for government to really kind of supercharge what we’re doing?
Because, you know, every week there’s international demand for, for what we’re doing. Uh, and that’s really cuz we take a strength based approach to working with young men. Yeah. We don’t see them as a problem to be solved. We see them as these amazing, amazing assets. And we just bring out the best in them, and I think that’s what’s missing in mainstream public conversation.
Finally, for a parent listening to this podcast, what is one conversation starter they can have with their tween or teen? To help end toxic masculinity. Mm. First question that came to me was asking your child, How can I be a better parent putting it back on us? I like that. I love that. Oh, this has just been such a rich conversation.
Moms. I know you will have got. So much out of this. Hunter, thank you so much. My pleasure. Thanks for having me.
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