What do we do when our relationship is in such a dark place, or even just a big old rut, that the grass on the other side seems so much greener? Host Amelia Phillips speaks to Clinical Psychotherapist and Couples Counsellor Melissa Ferrari about strategies to help couples identify damaging patterns, what to do when one partner is unwilling to try and simple hacks to reconnect and find a path forward using the PACT method.
Below is an unedited transcript of the podcast episode:
I don’t know about you, but over the last couple of years I’ve had so many couples close to me, divorce five actually at the last count. My sister is one of those. Now there’s one or two couples in that group that have been really struggling for years, and divorce really did seem like the best solution for them.
But for some of the other couples, I just scratched my head as to why it didn’t work. Take my sister. You have never met a More in love couple in those early years. They were great parents. They seemed like a real team, but over the last couple of years, the cracks have started to show through. The niggles tend to blame contempt even.
But were these just ruts that could have been worked through with some careful focus, or are couples like this? For the Big D,
this is Healthy her with Amelia Phillips. When you think about till death do us part, that really is a very long time to be with someone and as life presents so many pressures, often our relationships bear the brunt and may even be blamed for the upsets and disappointments that we experience. So what do we do when our relationship is in such a dark place or, or even just a big old rut that the grass on the other side just seems so much greener?
Melissa Ferrari is a clinical psychotherapist with over 20 years experience in couples counseling and individual psychotherapy. She specializes in relationship therapy, especially those couples thinking are separating. Thanks for joining me today, Melissa. Hi Melia. Thanks for asking me to do this with you today.
You get to be privy to so many couple sessions. Now, when a couple presents to you thinking of separating, what are the most common pain points that you observe, and particularly I’m thinking with parents in mind. Look, there’s those classic things, you know, like money, mess, sex, kids, all of that. That’s a laundry list, isn’t it?
Right there it is. It sure is. It sure is. But quite often a lot of topics can be around someone in the relationship feeling quite neglected, unloved, potentially even abandoned by their partner. That’s, that’s a big one. The other one can be around parenting styles. Yeah. And other things like, you know, somebody might be, um, addicted to something like, you know, Yeah.
Pornography drugs. Alcohol shopping. Yeah. You know, the list goes on and on. Yeah. And I, I guess for today’s chat, because it is, you know, such a broad topic, I probably wanna park the traumas like addiction, infidelity, like the, you know, the really big fundamental issues, abuse, et cetera. And I probably just wanna focus on those relationships that just are in that horrible rut situation.
Okay. I’m glad that’s clear, . Yeah, I know, because otherwise it’s just too massive a topic to talk about. Yes. I really just, you know, for the mom sitting here now going, Oh, like he just, he blinks and I just wanna kill him. He annoys me so much. Or maybe it’s the other way around, maybe. You know, the mum is feeling like she is neglected and like, you know, he’s really hard on her.
So, so kind of more about that when the dynamic is shifted. And I guess I just wanna circle back to that lovely laundry list that you mentioned up front. Is there an overarching theme with all of those things? Like a, a lack of connection or an inability to communicate or, or something like, Okay, so I’m probably gonna talk just for a little bit.
Mm-hmm. around. When we first fall in love, we fall in love, and we have all of those wonderful hormones going through the body, you know? Mm-hmm. , like it’s dopamine rich and Yep. Oxytocin, and it’s very, very exciting. So it’s, A cocktail. Yeah, a cocktail. The honeymoon cocktail that I’ve exactly. Haven’t, haven’t drunk from that for a very long time.
Right. Okay. . Anyway, sorry. You got me on cocktail. You said cocktails and my mind started wondering, That’s another story. That’s for another time. Okay. Okay. So cocktail, The Cocktail of love. Yes. Yeah. And um, for some like studies have been done that it can be at like, On cocaine. It is such a strong, addictive process.
It’s done for a reason by, you know, science so that we will go on and have children and do all the things that Mother nature. That’s right. So what happens after a while is that we start to do this process of automating our partner. It’s the brain where we go. The brain goes. I know you, we’ve been together for a little while.
You’re familiar to me, which can feel very, very safe and secure. There’s the advantages, but there’s a huge downside. We stop being curious. Mm-hmm. and we stop paying attention. Yep. And this automating process at the brain does, gets couples into trouble. Now, I’m not going to say all couples. But very many.
Yeah. Okay. And when you say it gets us into trouble, what sort of patterns does this trigger in us? Well, when we stop paying attention, when we stop being curious, when we start to lack interest in our partners inner world, mm. All kinds of things can start to come up and it can be issues. Feeling unloved, feeling like you’re not being paid attention to abandonment issues can come up.
And so the list goes on and on of what it creates. And this can be very much at an unconscious level. Yeah. Because the agreement was that we came in here and we were gonna love each other forever, and it was always gonna be like it was in the beginning. Yeah. Later I’ll talk about a, a, a remedy to that.
Yes. Good. And I do wanna get there, but you mentioned, and I love that you said, Our inner world and you said that we stopped paying attention to the inner world because you can go through the motions. How is your day dear? What’s going on? Oh, oh, you had that gripe and you sort of, you know, tick the boxes of, of connecting, but.
And I’m gonna generalize here. So apologies. Say you’ve got a husband who is the sort of typical, not the touchy feely type, and the she’ll be right mate. Uh, trying to connect with their inner world can be challenging because if I sat down with my husband and put my hands on his shoulders and star in his eyes up close and said, Honey, tell me how you are really feeling.
I, he would just want to get away as fast as possible. Can you give me a shortcut? When we have got someone who’s hard to connect with that inner world, a shortcut to connecting, when you’ve got kids running around and you’re pretty tired, , are you pretty tired? Yeah. Okay, so what’s, what you’re probably talking about there is different attachment styles.
Okay. And attachment styles are what are formed young in our development with the caregivers around us. Mm-hmm. , whether it be your parents or, or whoever, whoever took care of you or, and in some cases, whoever, whoever didn’t, you know mm-hmm. where, where there was not that attention paid. Yep. So we all have different attachment styles, and to make this as succinct as I can, they basically break down into three different ones.
We’re either anxiously attached, avoidantly attached, or securely attached. Okay? So securely attached to people that are kind of good at relationships and come from a family where that was done very, very well. There was that two person system. How do you feel? How do I. Can we join together and, and be together in that?
Mm-hmm. . Then we have more of the anxious style, which is someone who is a little bit more clingy. They like to have lots of conversation and talk to their partner. Mm-hmm. . And then the third style is what we call avoidant. And so an avoidance style can be someone. Doesn’t need regulating from their partner so much where there’s lots of conversations.
Okay. They tend to, um, like to process on their own as opposed to someone who’s anxious, who likes to process things together. Okay. And so let’s talk about the dynamic. If you had one of the avoidance and then one of the anxious, when that dynamic is there, how do you work that? Okay, so first of all, I think he’s understanding these different styles.
Most couples can go around in a loop that just continues over and over. The same pattern. Same argument. Yeah. We keep doing this and we are not re resolving. Yes. And there needs to come a point where, Yes, we got into the relationship in the beginning, we all show our best selves. In the beginning. And then what happens after a while?
You become family. Yep. And what do we do in family? We’re ourselves and we do all those things. Yep. Like toothpaste, squirting out of the toothpaste tube. All . You annoying things. Exactly. That drive us mad. Exactly. And it’s gonna happen to everybody, right? Yeah. Cause we’re in our new family with this new person.
Yep. So what ends up happening is that people get into a rut around this and it’s like, why isn’t it like it was in the beginning? The beginning was so lovely, it was so easy. Remembering you are propped up on something as strong as a drug. The hormone cocktail. Exactly. A honeymoon cocktail. So when you do have a couple that presents to you, Saying, Look, we’re thinking of separating.
What’s the process that you take with that couple to either help them decide or to help them consciously uncouple? How do you unpack this in your couple’s therapy? Okay, so the model that I use is a psychobiological approach to couple therapy. Okay. We call it packed. Packed, Packed. Okay. Okay. I’ve heard of Pact and Packed was created by Dr.
Stan Takin, who wrote the book, Wired for Love, fabulous book I recommend. Okay. Wired for Love. Okay. I’ll look why For Love Dr. Stan Takin. And so what I, what I’m doing is when people come in, people are telling their story. Okay. And she did this, and then I said that, and then this happens every morning, or this happens every week, or we had this big blow up every three months.
Yep. Whatever story that people are telling me. Yeah. Now when people are telling a story, we believe we’re right and that our perspective is correct. And perspectives like smoke and mirrors. Mm. Okay. Yeah. Who knows whose perspective is right? They always say there’s three sides to every story side, her side and the truth.
Exactly. So my job in the beginning is to just. So the first session with me can really feel like a bit of an interview. Yeah. Not an interrogation. If I’m doing it right and I’m just listening and I’m actually watching, and what I’m doing is things like, say one partner is speaking, I’m looking at the other partner.
to see their reaction. Have they shut down? Are they not listening? Do they interject? Exactly. Is that the sort of, the signals that you’re picking up from? Exactly. The eye rolling. The eye rolling. Eye rolling is contempt. Right? And so when I’m starting to see eye rolling and lots of looking away with the other person, I’m able to detect how much, how much trouble.
This couple is in. Right. So I do all of that observation and my sessions go for the first session up to three hours. Wow. The reason why I do that is because one hour for couple therapies never enough. Okay. Because you can’t get enough information. You’ve got two people. Yep. And you can’t be watching the reactions of the other without time.
So time is what’s on my side as a couple therapist. To really work out what’s going on. And so explain the packed method. Once you’ve listened and understood this, what do you then do next? How do you help them to move forward? So there’s three areas in pact. I feel it’s important to say that we are working with attachment.
Mm-hmm. , we’re working with the brain neuroscience, What happens in the brain, particularly that process, The cocktail, Yep. That I was talking. Earlier. And then the third area is around arousal, arousal regulation. And I’m not talking about sex, I’m talking about the couple where, and we all know it. We may be it ourselves when they fight or when they argue, one goes into that real screechy, screaming, angry.
The red zone. Exactly. It doesn’t always look like that. It can look like, um, many, many things. Okay. And either both will be up there in what we call a hyper arousal. Okay? This is the nervous system, or you know, those couples where one does that and the other one checks out. Yep. The other ones in the, in the zone of more, more depressed, more upset, more quiet, more shutting down.
Okay. And that can feel like a power play issue as well in some couples. Can the one that feels shut down, you know, feel like the other one’s being overly aggressive or, Yeah, they’re feeling unheard. And that’s that sort of, I guess, power dynamic that you hear some couples complaining about. Absolutely.
The brain is always looking. Any detection of threat. Okay. So that’s the sort of second element of the, Of the pact. And then what was the third thing you said? Attachment. Mm-hmm. neuroscience and arousal regulation. Oh, I see. Okay. Sorry, I put the two together. Okay. So they’re the things that you are kind of, you’re wanting to get feedback on and understand.
Mm, yes. And it can be through visual body language. The eyes, what people are doing with their eyes. I’m looking at things like lips. If lips are really pursed. Yeah. You know, it’s like they’re, but they’re saying, I love you. Mm-hmm. through purse, lips, . Yeah, exactly. So those kind of things is what I, is what I’m looking for.
Mm-hmm. and as normal human beings, that’s why people pay someone like. To actually detect this stuff because people dunno what they’re doing. People have no, no, because it’s all automated. You know, once you’ve been with someone for so long, it’s just inherently who you are. It is so, So what do you do with all this information?
You’ve gathered all that and then so it’s like I’ve sort of played investigator. Yeah. Well, then I will start to correct things. Okay. It might be, I will support the couple if we have someone to give the example quickly. If somebody is someone that tends to scream or yell or go get angry, you know, some people show all their, their teeth.
Mm-hmm. , which is almost like a predatory Yeah. Kind of that, that’s gonna create threat. Yep. In in their partner. Yep. So I might say something. Just drop your voice a little bit and say that to your partner again, and I’ll stop them and I’ll say, What do you see? Yeah. Okay. Oh, it seems like he’s, or she’s actually listening to me or, or heard me.
Okay. So what are the, what are they doing that tells you that? And they say, Well, they’re looking a little bit calmer than usual. Okay. So the idea is that that experience, Because we’re sponges when we get that experience through working with me. It has become almost like a blueprint. Wow. We can do this.
Okay. So do you then take those, I guess, tips that you’ve given them and those strategies you give them to them to go home practice to try them? They come back, you know, a week later or a few weeks later, and hopefully they’ve been able to unlock some conversations without, you know, getting into that threat and hyper aroused.
I don’t send people home with homework or work it out. I do it all live in the office. Okay? And the idea is, is for me to help facilitate the process that they can do it. Because when they go home, everything kind of, you know, starts to be the old stuff comes in the environment and all of that. So packed is in the moment lively.
We’re walking around room, we’re setting up scenarios, we’re doing all kinds of things. Imagine you are in the kitchen and that fight happen. Let’s do it here now. Yeah. And the great thing is that a lot of the issues we have are repetitive issues and you can almost, you could almost sort of list them out.
Essentially happen in a similar way.
What do you do when you get a couple coming and one wants to be there, but the other doesn’t? Okay, so what, again, I’m, I’m observing and I’m watching, and so I might start to ask the other partner, you know, do you think they’re on board? And the other partner might say, No, he or she hasn’t been for two.
Okay. And then my job, you know, without going into, into theory and being a therapist, is to uncover that and unpack that so that we work that out. And I wanna work that out pretty quickly. Mm. I wanna work that out today. You know, if someone’s on board or not, because is it that you don’t wanna come to therapy because you are done?
Like you actually are so done with this relationship that you don’t even have Yeah. The energy to go to therapy about it. And I guess that would be a pretty clear signal of what the best movement forward would be. Yeah. Versus. I’m just so angry that I just can’t talk about it or I don’t wanna talk about it depends on what stage people are at, and I think when someone is angry, that’s the kind of stuff that you do still have enough energy in it and somebody’s on board enough to really, really work with it.
Now, sometimes people come to therapy and they think they have decided they. Yes. Right? Yes. But they start to notice in the therapy something different. Mm. And it might be, oh, with the therapist here, you know, he or she’s really listening. That’s exciting. Yeah. I’m orchestrating something different. Yep. And when we experience something different, we can’t say no, that didn’t happen because it, it has happened.
And my job is to remind them of that. But you said last week. You know, and, and this is where I kind of say it feels a little bit like csi, and that’s what makes it so exciting. I love it. Yeah. For this reason. Yeah. I can see. Mm. And so what about couples with children? Because when you’ve got children, you might be really unhappy in your relationship, but you decide that you’re just gonna live with it for the sake of the kids.
How does a couple, with, with kids, how do you treat them? Do you treat them differently to another couple? Do you suggest they try to work it out for the sake of the kids? What’s your approach? First thing is, yeah, I’m, I’m asking them questions and, and the first question that I ask would be is the relationship first.
Well, no, the children come first. I’m sure you’d get that reaction a lot, I imagine. Yeah. And what do you say to that ? I ask, do you, do you both agree on that? Cause if you both agree on that, that’s great. and it rarely happens. One says, Now I want the relationship first. The other says, No, the kids will always be first.
And I let them know, Well, that’s your first problem. Oh, that’s so interesting. You’re not in the same place. What a great question for our listeners. Yeah. Honestly, think about your relationship. And think about your kids, which comes first? Which should come first, Melissa, in your opinion? In my opinion, I think if the relationship comes first, everybody benefits.
Oh, that’s beautiful. You know? And the kids benefit. I don’t feel so guilty about going on my date nights now. No, they’re, They’re important. They’re important. So now I’m never telling people that, that, you know, if people agree that they both want kids first, I’m okay with that and we’ll work with it and we’ll see, and we’ll see maybe what happens, and I might point out where it’s gonna be problematic, but if anything, What’s first needs to be agreed on.
Okay. But my recommendation is always relationship first. And the reason is, is because when we get into a relationship, we’re in a little survival mode. We’re in a little survival packed. Mm. And everything we do is about the survival. You know what I mean? It’s, it’s how we, we are primed and, um, it, that’s evolution and all, you know, all of, all of that stuff that contributes.
So this system, Is a system of survival that we’ve got each other’s back when there’s a, you know, a, the big wide world of something like coronavirus or war out there. Mm-hmm. , you know, you and I protect each other. Yep. And we protect each other in a way that’s deliberate and conscious. Yeah. That’s beautiful.
And Parenthood does feel like the Hunger Games or a World War. You’ve got, you know, dive bombers coming at you every direction and you do need to be, A team, and when you’re working as a team together and you’re in that flow as a couple, Life around you just feels so much easier and you do feel so much safer and secure.
And on the flip side, when it’s not working, gosh, I know when our relationship’s not in a great place, my world around me crumbles. And it’s a really stressful place to be. Yeah. What about when someone’s own self-worth and their own self-esteem is clouding their views on their relationship? So let me say that someone’s really unhappy, maybe.
Not happy with their career progression, their financial situation, and so they look to blame the relationship. The relationship becomes the scapegoat. Are you able to identify when that happens? Yeah. Well, the frame of what I’m doing when I’m working with people is the expectation of the therapy is what we call secure functioning.
So I wanna see how you do take care of each. And secure functioning is we have each other’s back. We’re in the foxhole together. We aren’t doing things outside the relationship that is going to threaten. We’re not talking to other people about what’s going on for us. All of these kind of things just gonna jump in there.
What do you mean we’re not talking to others about what’s going on? Well, it can be very threatening when a partner hears that a man or a woman, Has gone and told their friends or a friend everything about what’s going on in the relationship. That’s the kind of stuff that you need to be checking out with each other that it’s okay.
Oh wow. Okay. Cause we, what we’re trying to do is reduce threat. So just asking for a friend here, um, . So, uh, so I have a friend who is an oversharer with her friends about her relationship. Yeah. You’re saying that that can. Pose a threat to the partner. Yeah. If they find out and it’s something quite personal or some people really don’t want others to know.
If the relationship’s in trouble, you know, particularly if they’re presenting on social media something else. Mm. You know that, that you’re all happy, that can potentially be a huge threat to the relationship. Mm. So secure functioning. , It’s you and I. We are in the couple bubble. Okay. And that’s in the book that I told you about earlier.
Yeah. And we protect each other. We are a system and you are my go-to person. And if we’re gonna sort things out, we do it between us and going outside the relationship or having something exciting happen or something bad happen and you tell someone else before your. , that kind of stuff can be really, really threatening.
You know, if you, if you, your partner becomes the fourth person you tell Mm, that person, they’re gonna be wondering, Why didn’t you tell me first? Now, not always. , but sometimes the only thing I struggle with with that is what if friends are a great source of support for you? What if talking to friends about relationship troubles is a great way to, you know, almost like therapy to help support you through it.
How do you, how do you balance that out? You, well, you talk about things I think that, you know, your partner would be okay with. Okay. That if they did hear back what you’re saying. That they would be okay with whatever you are discussing and make sure it’s something that you have at least tried to discuss with them.
Okay? And, and let them know, you know, I don’t wanna talk to this about other, with other people. I wanna talk about it with you. So we were talking a moment ago about self worth and about what happens if our partner is blaming the relationship, or one of us is blaming the relationship when we are really unhappy with our life.
How can we support that partner and, and how do you help those couples, um, and those people differentiate. It’s actually not the relationship’s fault. It’s actually. Self work that needs to happen. I work more from a perspective that if we get the relationship. Right. Mm-hmm. that other things are gonna take care of themselves.
It underpins everything else. Yes. And you know that’s true. It really is true. When your relationship is firing, you do feel good in other areas of your life. You’ve got resources. You’ve got resources to go out into the world and do the amazing things, you know, like you are doing right now. You know? Yeah.
It’s, it’s those things that when you have that support, because, We’re, It’s about survival. Mm-hmm. , everything’s about survival. And if that area is good, you are going to be more resourced because if all your resources is going to arguing at home, trying to work things out all the time, that can become really distressing, tiring, and look really wear people out.
But if you can get that right at home, the other stuff does tend to take care of itself. So long as both people are on. And have agreed why we’re together. Why we’re doing this and that is to stop that automating process. Yeah. Okay. To stop it just being automatic. We’re in love and this will all be okay.
That’s the mistake people make. So if someone listening now is seriously thinking that separation is the way forward, are there any questions that you would wanna pose to them or steps that they could take to help? Better understand what they should do. So if somebody is thinking is out there and thinking about divorce, like highly recommend seeing a really good couple therapist, first of all.
Yeah. The reason being is so much in it can be about past trauma. Or what’s happened before this relationship. You know, if you came into this relationship and your last partner was incredibly unfaithful, and then you marry this person and that becomes something that you bring in around trust and what’s eroded the relationship is your constant mistrust of a very faithful partner.
Mm. You need to be able to identify that. And the idea of being with a couple therapists, particularly someone worked inact, is that you know your partner, these vulnerabilities, your partner, if they know what’s going on, are able to work with a better. Then I’m just, I’m just leaving you. Yeah. Yeah. They understand you.
They have the empathy. They look at your past trauma. They understand why your behaviors are like they are, and they see that you wanna fix it. Yeah. It’s like a roadmap. It’s like a manual on the person that I have has had this happen or, or that happen and this is how they’ve been shaped psychologically.
This is my person. , and so I’m going to do all I can to take care of them, particularly around their vulnerabilities. So, Over and above coming to couples therapy and and working with someone like you, are there any dynamics in the relationship that would help them? Is there anything, for example, you know, improving their communication style or like a, is there something that the listener could take home today and go, Okay, I’m gonna try this with my partner tonight and see if that makes a difference?
Okay, so remember earlier I talked you about the nervous. Yes. You know, if couples can learn to regulate each other through touch, through words, through ritual. Example would be if you are going off to work in the morning, make sure that the two of you check in a big hug. Have a good day. I know you’ve got that important meeting on.
I’ll be thinking about. . Okay. That is something that regulates us and puts us in that zone of feeling. Okay. We call it the window of tolerance. Window of tolerance. I like that. Yeah. You’re not, you’re not in the hyper zone or the hyper zone that I talked about before. Yeah. And then during the day, there might be a few check-ins.
Not all day, but you know, Hey, I love you, miss you. Hope it’s going well. And then at the end of the day, you can put a little note in lunch boxes, all of those kind of things. And at the end of the day, again, that moment when you meet up again, it’s kind of like children. when they go off to school. Yeah. And you meet up with them at the end of the day in romantic love.
Our brain pretty much operates the same as kids. . We really are big children. Let’s face it, , So you know, and then children when they’re going off to sleep, this is why we have sleep issues with children. You know is they’re going into their unconscious and they’re technically leaving you. Yeah. And so again, you know the old advice of decades gone by, don’t fall asleep on an argument.
There’s really some truth in that. Yeah. Because. Nighttime is when things can come up for people. Right. So making sure that that connection, however it is, and, and it might, it might be sex, it might be a conversation, it might be doing something. You know, some people draw on each other’s back with their finger.
Just something little foot rub. Watching the same show together. Exactly. Having a giggle about, you know, children’s activities that they did that day. Just that, exactly those little moments of connection really. Really important parts of the day is separations and reunions, separations and re that where you have those connection opportunities that can really have big bang for buck.
Yep. Another one is gazing, not staring. Gazing into each other’s eyes. I love that . I love that I even get like warm and fuzzy just thinking about it. And also think about my husband’s reaction cuz he would laugh, but he would actually love it. He would. I’ve heard of the six second kiss, which I love this idea as well.
When was the last time you kissed your partner for six seconds? And even just for a laugh, go. We’re gonna kiss, literally touch lips for six seconds and like, you’ll laugh and it’ll seem crazy. But you know what a great little exercise. . Yep. It’s a lovely way for connection. Anything tactile, you know, with that physical body to body kind of experience.
And that doesn’t always have to be sex. It’s, it’s not. It’s just that you have that closeness and that touch. It, it’s, it’s like, you know, when a baby’s close to mum’s skin, when the baby’s unsettled and, and they start to. Same concept with adults. Oh, Melissa, this has been such a fascinating chat and you know, one of the biggest takeouts for me that I’ve just sat and had a light bulb moment is your question about are you putting the relationship first with the family and actually doing a little audit?
Just have a think about the last week and how many times you put your relationship first, or how many times you put children or maybe other things first. And I really think. If we just, if that’s the one thing that we take away from this chat today, I think that could be a game changer because you can literally say, When my partner arrives home, I’m putting you first, even if it’s just for that couple of minutes when they get home.
Wonderful. Thank you so much. I hope that for those listening that may be thinking that, you know, they’re at a, a lost end. I hope there might have been some pointers that you can take home. And try with your partner and please, if all else fouls, absolutely go and see an amazing psychotherapist such as.
Melissa, thank you so much. Thank you. Thanks for having me here today.
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