With one in four pregnancies ending in miscarriage or stillbirth, chances are someone close to us will experience it and need support. Host Amelia Phillips and bereavement outreach worker Janne Sverdloff discuss how best to support a friend or loved one going through this loss, when we should step in and when we should give space. They look at how to help manage returning to work and social engagements, and how concepts like the ring theory can help create a supportive space for someone grieving.
Below is an unedited transcript of the podcast episode:
It’s not often that I’m lost for words, but recently a dear friend of mine suffered a sudden pregnancy loss at 19 weeks. I supported her as best I could, but I felt like nothing I was doing or saying was any help at all. I wasn’t sure if she wanted space or whether I should be contacting her more. Did she want to talk about it or just get on with her life?
Having not suffered a miscarriage myself, I feel very ill-equipped to be. Supportive friend, even though my heart is in the right place,
This is healthy. Her with Amelia Phillips with one in four pregnancies ending in miscarriage or stillbirth. Chances are someone close to us will experience it needing. But knowing exactly how to support them, when to step in and when to give them space can be really difficult. And what is the support that we should be offering?
What do you say to someone who has experienced such an immense loss? Jan’s Wordof is an end of life, doller and bereavement outreach worker for Red Nose and Sands. Jan, thank you so much for joining me today. Thank you. A. So tell me about the work that you do as a bereavement outreach worker for Sands and Red Nose.
Um, I’m a part of a team of women who all have lived experience. We’ve all suffered our own pregnancy losses, and we work in the community to offer emotional and practical support to other women and families who have suffered a loss. So the program is very much client driven. The support provided is such that each person has a say in what they need support with.
So when I say practical support, it could be support with memory making, with organizing photography, so their baby can be photographed. It could be help with funeral and memorial arrangements. , it could be attending appointments. Mm-hmm. , you know, often parents when a baby has died, have to go to appointments that can be quite triggering.
Yeah. Walking back into a hospital. And so we are able to be there to attend an appointment, to sit as a, an autopsy report is talked through. Wow. And to be that person there to take notes, to listen and support the parent in that space. I’ve offered support at the places of employment interviews about return to work, helping parents to find a way to return in a transitional way to their workplace.
It can be one of the hardest things. Yeah. Around a pregnancy loss. Absolutely. When the last time they were in the workplace, there were balloons and cakes and you know, the sendoff. and also the reaction of the people around you when you’ve experienced something like that, which is kind of what I wanna get into today.
Tell me, with that work you do, how do you get connected with the parents? Is it something that’s offered in the hospital when it happens, or do they have to seek you out through Red Nose and Sands? So there’s a few ways it can be. Through a hospital and each, in each state, there’s a pilot hospital for this program.
As the program is a pilot program, and so families that go through the hospital in each state can be referred by the bereavement, midwives, and social workers, but there’s also community referrals that happen. So a person can self-refer. Mm-hmm. through the red nose. Or San’s website. Okay. You can be referred by calling the one 300 mm-hmm.
San Support line. People who put their name down for counseling mm-hmm. through Red Nose, are often referred to this program while they wait for a counselor to be, um, assigned to them. So there’s a number of ways. Oh, it’s great to know. For any of the mums listening, If they did want to, you know, refer their loved one to your services, they can literally just, you know, go on the red nose or the Sam’s website and seek it out that way.
And is it something that’s done face to face or over the phone or it’s really bespoke based on each individual situation? It is bespoke, so the ideal is to be face to face. So I’ve had the opportunity to be at the hospital. And to be with the family after their baby has been born and to even meet their baby.
Um, you know, sometimes the families will have their baby in the room with them in the cooling cot. Oh gosh. So that might be the first place that we meet. I might not meet them until a bit later, so it might be in the family home. Mm-hmm. , sometimes we go for a walk. So I’ve done some lovely walks with moms.
Um, in nature by the water, uh, near to wherever they live with Covid. Of course, the, the calls are on Zoom now, which, which is still effective. It’s not absolutely ideal. Yeah. But it’s also meaning that we are able to support families who are a bit more remote. So people who. And not living near where the program is being run.
So I’ve supported, Yeah. Families in Canberra. Yeah. And I’ve also had support sessions with grandparents in France with, with an interpreter, um, in Ireland. Go. So it’s trying to be wherever the need is. I am just, I’m sitting here with tears, dreaming down my face, just already so emotional. Just thinking about what these poor families have to go through and what support you would be offering.
Is it, is it something that they pay for or is it, you know, funded by the foundation? So, At the moment, it’s funded by the federal government and it’s completely free to families. Wonderful. And the support service runs over three months with up to 10 support sessions. Wow. So you can imagine the, over those 10 months, the needs for that family change.
Yeah. And you know, we start to see some healing taking place. incrementally. Yeah. But you know, it’s wonderful to see the change that this program can make for the families who are a part of it. Oh, it’s so good to know that there’s a program like yours out there. Now Jan, you very sadly suffered a stillbirth at 39 weeks.
Can you tell me a little bit about your experience? Yeah, so, um, I’ve heard my story quite a few times. Come back at me from some of the mums that I’ve worked. So it’s not unusual. Mm. But yeah, I went to my last GP visit. I was going through a public hospital and I had a, a GP who had an expertise in obstetrics.
I was living in the Blue Mountains and I went for my final visit. Everything was going really. Um, I was healthy, happy baby, number one or two? Number two, Yeah. Well, we had a six year old, so I had our first baby when I was, um, almost 22. Aw. A uni student, baby yourself. Yeah. And so we decided to sort of wait until we were ready, second time around and, and by the time our first born, Emma was five and she was at school.
It was like, Oh. I think we’re ready. Mm-hmm. . Um, and so we, we tried and, and fell pregnant and had a wonderful pregnancy, moved to the Blue Mountains, um, in a house that we’d built up there. And yeah, that last check, there was no heartbeat. Oh my goodness. And so it was that, oh, you know, that ultimate shock and devastating news.
And of course, you know, you just, you just have no idea. It’s. It’s not really, um, under your radar unless you’ve, you’ve heard about someone else or you know someone personally. So I just could not imagine how this had happened. Yeah, it was, it was complete shock. Um, and then I realized that, oh my God, I was going to give birth to my baby.
And, and he or she ended up being a little girl was not going to be alive. Um, , but even at a very young age, I think I was, I was already thinking, I’ve got to get through this. I’ve got to be there for our daughter, Emma. I’ve got to survive. So how do I do that? Um, and I started making choices about the birth quite quickly that I didn’t want, um, I wanted to be aware of what was going on.
I knew that I had to be in this experience to, to work through it. So, yeah, it was. It was so difficult, but, um, I, I had a wonderful midwife and that made it a lot better. Did you have to wait for your body to go into labor naturally or did they induce your labor? So I left the hospital. I was sent home and told to come back in the next morning.
So I had an afternoon and evening at home. And then, um, we went to the hospital the next day to be ind. , but I, I did go into labor, so Wow. That happened with our first one too. I went into hospital to be induced and then went into labor. So , I think my body has a way of going, Ah, just get on with it. . Yeah.
And then what was the experience like going through labor, knowing that you were going to give birth to a baby that wasn’t alive? It was, it was really, um, It was really quite beautiful and it was, I mean, it was scary, but I had, I had support with me. I had my husband, I had my cousin, um, who, uh, was a nursing sister and had also lost a baby, and she was with me and I had a beautiful midwife and a wonderful doctor.
So I had great support in the space and I was given control. And do you know, As I gave birth, the miracle of birth is present with you as you give birth, whether your baby is alive or, or has died. Right. And then your baby is as beautiful as any baby that you will ever deliver. That’s beautiful. It’s, yeah.
Um, and it was, it was really amazing and it was the only birth. That I actually watched myself, my midwife said, You, you need to watch this Jan, and handed me a mirror. Wow. Which I held, and I watched her come, um, with my other two births. I, I, I didn’t, Yeah. I, Yeah. You know, it was, but. . I’m very grateful, um, that that happened.
Yeah. Why are you grateful for that? What was it about that that, that you look back on with gratitude? That it’s another memory. Yep. And, and it, it really, um, made it all real. Yep. I think one of the things is that, um, you can lose the, the, um, , the actual fact that you are giving birth to a baby and you are this baby’s mother, you’re not going to take your baby home and, and watch, watch them grow up, but they’re your child.
And so. You want every bit of that you can grab onto. And that was just another bit that I was able to take with me. I don’t have a video of it or Yeah, yeah. Or anything, but I’ve got that in my head and I’ll never forget it. Ah, I can imagine. And what did you do in the preceding days after she was born? I mean, you obviously held her and had.
Time with her and, and what happens after that? Well, for me, um, you know, it was 32 years ago last week, so it was a long time ago. And, and things were quite different. Yep. We do have a couple of photos that were taken by our midwife mm-hmm. , but yeah, we didn’t have a lot of time with her. Our daughter came in and met her, um, and her first sort of reaction was, What’s all that on her, you know?
Yeah, yeah. and the midwife said, Oh, Emma, would you like to bathe her? She needs a bath, don’t you think? And so I watched as, um, Emma bathed her baby sister. Wow. Um, and, and dressed her. And we spent time with her. And then, um, you know, we had to leave the hospital without her. Of course, today. I, I would be able to stay in the hospital for a number of days and have her with me and I would be able to take her home if I wanted to.
Um, and have a cool and caught at home. Yeah. Yeah. Everybody has the right to do that, and I would’ve had the option to open her coffin, um, at the funeral as well and, and spend some more time with her. I didn’t know to ask for those things and, and they weren’t necessarily available back then, but I’m very grateful they are now.
And is that a really key part to healing that ability to, for a parent to feel like they’ve had. Adequate time. Yes. You, It’s never enough. Yep. But, but yes, I think so. Uh, although it is individual as well, and I think there’s cultural differences, you know, And, and there has to be that awareness that for some cultures they have very different beliefs about the baby in utero and when, um, when that life actually begins.
Other moms listening might not, might not agree, or this might not be their truth. Mm. But for me, certainly it was, it was very healing. And I do find that for most of the moms that I and and dads or co-parents Yeah. Whether it’s, you know, a same sex relationship. that it is helpful. Yeah. That’s interesting.
Is there ever the complete flip side where a mother just doesn’t even want to see her baby? It’s just all painful. She just almost wants as fast as possible the the memory to go away. Yeah. Is that a real feeling that some moms get? Definitely is.
Looking back on your experience, and thank you so much for sharing that with me. And I can’t believe that I’m the one blubbering, and you are so , so stoic about it. It’s, um, thank you so much. You’re very welcome. Looking back on that experience, is there anything that you could have or would’ve done differently to help you manage and process your grief?
Um, other than what I just said, I wish that I’d had, that is available today. Yep. I, I’m mostly very grateful for the support that I received. Most of it I went out and sought so. I joined the SAN Support Group. Mm-hmm. , that was, that was available, there was one, I think it was in Terry Hills in those days.
Mm-hmm. and one at rpa. Mm-hmm. . Um, and I went to those groups for a number of months and that was really, really helpful to be amongst other people who had experienced something like me. Yeah. I saw a Youngian psychiatrist for many years. I was able to talk openly with about my grief. I did body work and breath work and I sorted bitten pulses.
Oh wow. So, yeah, so I did have lots of support throughout that process and I think that all of that has helped me to, uh, get to where I am and to be able to support others. Mm. You know, cuz it’s really important, even though I have lived experience when I’m sitting with a. It’s not, it’s, I might cry with them.
Yeah. But it’s not my grief. Yeah. It’s my sadness for them. So the same way that you cried at hearing my story. Yep. Um, if, if my grief comes up, it’s not, Triggering my own story, but I’m, I’m there within their story. And that’s actually what I was just about to ask you. How do you find, you know, and I mean this is your chosen calling now.
How do you find stepping into that world at a personal level when you suffered such grief ? I always gotta say, why are you doing this? But I can see why cuz you’re so incredible. Sometimes it’s difficult. Um, through, through the organization for whom I work, we have wonderful supervision and, um, you know, I’m able to have access to a counselor and we have, we have clinical supervision in the same way that, uh, a counselor would.
So that’s really helpful. And I think I just can’t do too much of it. So I work part-time. Yep. And I make sure that I look after myself. So I love walking. I love swimming. Mm. I, I do yoga, I meditate, I, I, I debrief when I need to. Um, and I take care of myself. So I’ve always, uh, you know, one of my main values is staying healthy and fit.
So, yeah. And how long? Did you take to feel like you had recovered from that trauma or do you ever feel like you’ve recovered from that trauma? The first year for me was very difficult. Um, and I don’t know whether it was because it was 32 years ago. Mm-hmm. , because I do hear doctors saying differently now, but I was told to wait a year Okay.
Before I fell pregnant again. So we waited a year and then it took another two years to feel pregnant. I had some secondary infertility. That was hell. Yeah. That was really hard. Yeah. Yep. And then I had, we had our next pregnancy, which was very difficult because I was so anxious. Yes. I would’ve loved some more support through that.
Yeah. Um, and yeah, so it was a number of years I think having our next baby, there was lots of, you know, you’re worried about are they breathing? Is everything okay? You are sort of, because you’ve had the worst thing happen. Yeah. You, you’re not, you’re no longer naive in thinking these things don’t happen.
Yeah. Yep. But you have two very healthy, grown babies now, and two granddaughters as well, who are an absolute delight, By the way. What do doctors say now? You said a moment ago, doctors have different recommendations now. What do they recommend for falling pregnant again now? Well, I think it varies, but what they do is they, they monitor the mother’s physical health, so to make sure that they’re.
You know, uterus is contracted and that they’re, they’re physically ready for another baby. Um, I think it’s also important for the, the parents themselves to monitor their emotional health. Mm-hmm. as to how ready they are. But the reality is that a lot of the moms, um, today are choosing to have babies later.
And so they also have to think about their biological clocks. Yeah. And so that sometimes speeds the process up a bit. So doctors will be recommending falling pregnant earlier if, you know, they’re mentally and physically able to, if they’re able to. Yes. And, and I wish in a way that that had been my situation.
Yeah. Um, but yeah, it’s, you know, I’ve sat in appointments with people three months later and the doctors have said, You can start trying. So when we have a loved one experience, a miscarriage or a stillbirth, what can we do to best support them? So there’s the practical ways, you know, a hot meal. A massage voucher.
Mm-hmm. doing some cleaning if there’s other children looking after them. Yep. If they’re at school doing drop offs, pickups, things like that can be really, really helpful. Okay. Emotionally, I think the most important thing is to try to be comfortable sitting in the space and not being afraid of silence.
So, Being there for whatever the person needs. Um, and if you’re talking about, about the mom that you know, you are there for her, you are there to hear. Her story and just know that you can’t fix anything. Mm. Yes. So you’ve just got to be there. But it’s also really important to be curious and to, and to hear the story and if the baby’s been named to use the baby’s name and un.
I think another thing I’d like to mention is that if your friend’s baby had survived, You would be a part of their life if you’re good friends, and let’s say your friendship’s going to last. Yep. You’d be there for the naming day ceremony or the baptism christening. You’d be there for the first birthday.
You’d be there to see the child in their school uniform going off to their first day of school. Yep. , those milestones are important to be there for, even if they’re not happening because the parent has not just lost their baby, they’ve lost all of those. Yep. Those moments. So you imagine when you’re pregnant.
Yeah. Or even when you’re planning a pregnancy. Yep. Are there any mistakes or traps that people fall into when trying to be supportive? You know, just the things that you’re not meant to say, like, you know, Oh, at least you were only so many weeks pregnant. Or maybe this was for the best, or, you know, what are some of those traps?
Yeah, avoiding platitudes. Um, it’s better not to say anything than to. Because you can’t make the person better, so you’re not there to fix it. Um, and it’s also really important that you don’t project onto your friend your own beliefs. Mm. So you might have a faith that gives you a lot of comfort, but you don’t necessarily expect that that’s going to be comforting to your friend.
So I think it’s, it’s, it’s really allowing, um, your friend to have the. And to be there and listen and to respond authentically and honestly without trying to make it. Okay. What about if a loved one has shut down? You know, maybe they’re not responding to messages, maybe they’re, you know, just not wanting to accept help.
Is there a point where you just turn up with the hot meal or you keep kind of forcing yourself upon them? Or do you respect that silence? I think it’s important to respect. What is needed by that person. But I think it’s also important to turn up with the hot meal. Yes. Kind of a balance. Contactless. Yeah.
And I also saw someone, um, talking the other day. It was on a, uh, a short video that I watched about grief where they talked about their friend not wanting to speak, they didn’t want phone calls, and this friend sent a text every day with just checking, you’re. And her friend would text back an asterisk.
Yeah. , just to go Yeah. In response. So I’m not talking, I’m, I’m not engaging, but yeah. I’m here because you can worry. Yep. And so that, that’s something, and I think persisting. So for example, I hear a lot of people talking about how their friends don’t invite them because Oh, they know they’ll be babies there or they’ll be triggers or, Yep.
They don’t think they’re up to it. I think it’s important to invite your friend and include them with the proviso though. That totally understand if you, if it’s too much or you don’t want to, but I, I wanted to let you know and give you the option. That’s actually a really good point, and it also speaks back to our example earlier about going back to work.
I can imagine that the uncomfortableness of other people, Really exacerbate some negative emotion. Um, and that feeling of, you know, walking into the office and everyone looks down and doesn’t wanna look you in the eye because they’re just uncomfortable with how they should deal with it. Or finding out your friends have been to a baby shower and you weren’t included in it.
I can imagine how, uh, that would add to the stress. Absolutely. And, um, in terms of walking into the, the office or the workplace for the first time, I often suggest. If it’s possible that it would be good to do that, not on your first day back at work. Mm. So, you know, visit your workplace. Have a coffee. Yeah.
Have a chat. And also to have a, a private meeting with your manager and let them know how you are, how you’re going, and what’s important to you. Um, what, what you are comfortable talking about. When you are comfortable, um, sharing. It’s not the appropriate time in a. Um, to ask questions, but I think everybody needs to have their own, that their control over the return to the workplace and a transition is often good, not going back.
To your job full time straight away. Yeah. It could be very difficult. Yes, I can absolutely imagine that. What about dads and mates? You know, blokes can be complex little creatures sometimes when it comes to their emotions. Some men, you know, a lot more open and vulnerable and others not so much. Any tips for mates and how they, you know, men, I guess, approaching men and even women approaching dads that have lost a baby.
Everyone grieves in their own way. Mm-hmm. , and sometimes it’s, there’s typical gender sort of stereotypes around grief. Yeah. But not necessarily. So it’s, it’s important to understand and acknowledge that everyone does grieve differently and that the way that one person grieves is okay, even if it’s different to another.
And often a couple will grieve differently. Um, And part of them coming to terms with with each other. And what’s happened is, is understanding each other’s grief. So as outreach workers, we also provide information about different styles of grief so that people can understand that the way they’re feeling is actually normal, even if it’s not the same as the next person.
Yeah. Okay. And that’s a really good point as well, about how is your loved one going to deal with this? Is the fact that they’re not wanting to talk about it and not wanting to go there, Is that, you know, a negative sign or is that just a way that they’re processing it? And I guess you are saying that it’s really everyone will grieve in their own ways.
Yes, and, and often, um, and, you know, this was my experience. The grief for me when our baby Jessica died was, was different to my husband. And I think I was so acutely in the grief having, and also the shock of giving birth, that it was sort of his role to look after me a bit. Yeah. I, I was imagin that and put his grief off a bit, you know?
And so, and is there a danger there that, that grief. Dealt with because, you know, the father has taken that more functional role and protective role. Is, is it important to make sure that then at at some appropriate point, you know, his grief is dealt with as well? I think so. I think it’s important to be aware and to be open.
Um, and to have those conversations, but it’s easy to the h the horse to water, but you can’t make it drink . So, so yeah, I think, um, I think being aware and keeping the, the dialogue open and finding a way to include your baby in your lives. So if your partner doesn’t want to talk about the baby and you do, that can be really, really difficult.
Yeah. So finding a middle ground so that there is some, perhaps some ritual. Around it. So for example, someone might not be able to talk about it, but it might be okay for them to light a candle together. Mm-hmm. , you know, with a photo and just spend a minute in silence that this is the time we are giving to our baby today and to our grief.
And that’s okay for us. How do external groups such as Red Nose and Sands help during these times? I mean, we touched quite a lot at the start, and I think that gave a a pretty good summation. Is there anything else you’d like to add around such great programs like that? Yeah, so, uh, Red Nose provides counseling, which is wonderful, and that’s also.
and that’s either individuals or a couple. While it’s not couples counseling, it’s, it’s providing grief counseling as a couple, um, but also support groups. Really wonderful support groups. There’s, um, support groups for pregnancy loss, specifically for stillbirth and newborn death loss for termination for medical reasons, there’s a support group for.
This loss. Um, there’s a pregnancy after loss support group. Some of them are online, some of them are face to face. So I would encourage anybody who is in this situation to seek out the support of a group and be amongst other people. You can feel very isolating. You feel like this has happened to you, um, and nobody else.
Of course, it’s different now with online. You know, you can get on and lose yourself in that rabbit hole. Yeah, the support groups are amazing and there’s also so many sources, uh, resources there for friends, colleagues, grandparents, is that right? So where would they go to find those resources for, for, you know, somebody listening now who, who is experiencing this and wants to be the best supportive friend they can be.
Where would they go for those extra resources? So the Red Nose and the Sands Australia. Websites. Mm-hmm. . There’s also an English website, which I’m I quite like, that’s called Tommy’s, and they have some wonderful short videos of, of people being interviewed and while it’s in England and it’s not exactly the same, there’s some really good information there as well.
Finally, Jan, for someone listening who wants to best support their loved one going through miscarriage or still birth, If you were going to summarize our best approach, the overarching themes when we’re supporting a loved one, how would you sum it all up? I’d sum it up by saying there’s two areas.
There’s the practical area, which includes things like cooking a meal, doing some cleaning, washing the dishes, looking after siblings, so doing school drop offs, childcare runs, things like. And then there’s the emotional support where you sit with the person who is grieving in the liminal space. That is their deep grief shock.
You’re not trying to fix anything. You’re just sitting not trying to fix it. Anything. Silence is okay. Silence is absolutely okay. In fact, it’s really important. And it’s also important to know that that person who’s sitting in, in that space, um, there’s. A theory called the Ring Theory, and the person who is suffering this loss, or whether it be a trauma or whatever.
Mm-hmm. , they’re in the center and they’re the person that needs all of the comfort to come to them. Yep. And for them to be able to dump out, So to be able to express their sadness, their grief, their fear, their anxiety, whatever, outwards and the people in the next circle around. So the circles are concentric?
Yeah. Like a bullseye might be their, Yeah. Their partner or their parent or a sibling. Mm-hmm. . And they dump out, they, they talk to, And then those people provide that comfort Nonjudgmental. Yeah. They can sit and cry with them and fill the grief with them, but they don’t lean on them. They don’t dump back in.
If they need support, then they go to the next layer, the next ring out. Yeah. I love this. Yes. Okay. Yeah. All right. That’s a great summation. And also just to throw in there your comment about using their name and knowing that, that you are now a part of this child’s life forever. That’s right. Jan, thank you so much for not only sharing your story, but also for your amazing advice today.
Oh, thank you very much. It was a pleasure.
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