Host Amelia Phillips goes behind the scenes, giving an insight into each episode, what went well, what didn’t and helps us get to know the guests a little better. This ep goes behind domestic abuse expert Jess Hill and Gastroenterologist Dr B, and their interviews.
About the guests:
Jess Hill is an investigative journalist who has been writing about domestic violence since 2014. Prior to this, she was a producer for ABC Radio, a Middle East correspondent for The Global Mail, and an investigative journalist for Background Briefing. She was listed in Foreign Policy’s top 100 Women to follow on Twitter, and her reporting on domestic violence has won two Walkley awards, an Amnesty International award and three Our Watch awards.
Jess authored See What You Made Me Do, a book about the phenomenon of domestic abuse and coercive control. Her book won the 2020 Stellar Prize and was adapted into SBS’s documentary series See What You Made Me Do. She has recently released a Quarterly Essay on how #MeToo has changed Australia, titled ‘The Reckoning’ and regularly conducts training and education for groups from magistrates, to high school students, and workplaces. She is an absolute wealth of knowledge on this very complex but important issue.
Dr B: NY Times best selling author Dr Will Bulchewiz, otherwise known as Dr B, or the Gut health MD on instagram. Dr B is a gastroenterologist, a researcher with over 40 medical publications, and regularly gives sold out keynotes on gut health. Dr B has just released a brand new book; the Fibre Fuelled Cookbook not only filled with delicious gut healing and mood boosting recipes, but also groundbreaking new research on gut health.
Below is an unedited transcript of the podcast episode:
Welcome to another Behind My Show episode where I just give you a little bit of background to tell the recording when, and also a little bit of background and some extra questions on my amazing guests that I get to interview. So this week we’re going behind my show with two very different topics and two very different guests.
Jess Hill is an investigative journalist in the area of domestic violence and domestic abuse, and then we’ve got Dr. Will Bol Shavitz, who is a gastroenterologist and he’s on a mission to help us all heal our guts. So do very different topics, but equally fascinating. Let’s start with Jess Hill, who found herself back almost eight years ago as a journalist, and she was asked to investigate that horrific, rosy batty story.
You know, the ex-husband who murdered their son with a cricket bat in plain view. I mean, who can forget that? It was absolutely horrible. But since then, she’s just delved into this world of domestic abuse and she’s essentially become the expert in the field. She authored a book, See What You Made Me Do About the phenomenon of domestic abuse and coercive control.
And her book won the 2020 Stella Prize. It was incredible book. And then it was adapted into this SBS documentary called See What You Made Me Do? And please, if you haven’t seen this Doco, go and watch it. It is incredible. So as I record this news is broken out that Queensland has just criminalized coercive control in the wake of Hannah Clark.
This is so welcomed, albeit for many like Hannah, too late, but definitely a step in the right direction. I was really challenged as to how to approach this massively complex topic and also a topic that I haven’t personally had experience with. So I was extremely grateful to have secured such an incredible guest such as Jess.
I actually saw her speak on a panel two weeks earlier, along with Julia Baird, Julia Banks, on how the Me Too movement is rocking the political cabinet rooms and board rooms and classrooms, and this seismic shift that needs to happen and hopefully is happening, or at least a step in the right direction.
Women are demanding action, Not apologies, but for this episode, as I strongly believe in almost all domestic abuse cases, prevention is the best. I really wanted to narrow down and focus on this gray area. When a seemingly healthy relationship begins to move towards that more dangerous state, that’s where maybe some intervention before it gets terrible, may help.
And Jess did such a great job of explaining this, starting with what she called love bomb. As she’s talking through all this, I’m thinking of previous relationships I had when I was younger. I’m thinking, Gosh, maybe I dodged a bullet there. She talks about love bombing, and then she goes in and she really clearly explains this narrative that ends up sometimes going down that horrible domestic violence path.
Conversation highlighted to me the importance of us as friends, sisters, mothers, daughters, to know and recognize these signs before a perpetrator has coercively controlled and influenced and taken the power away from a loved one. Because it can be more subtle than we realize now is not the time for us to stand idly by, but rather have that uncomfortable conversation with our friend in those early stages.
Send her the documentary that Jess did. See what you made me do to watch it. Anyway, it was a serious conversation, but also an optimistic one. We still have a long way to go, but just as she points out, we’ve also made some progress, at least by de-stigmatizing it and empowering women to speak up, which more and more are.
It was nice to ask a few lighter questions at the end and get to know the woman behind the journalist. So here. Fast few that I ask Jess.
Okay. Jess, what is the pit and the peak of being an investigative journalist covering domestic abuse? Well, the peak of it is really entering into this world of amazing people, both victims, survivors, and people who work in this area. There’s so much life in this. You know, there’s so much at stake, there’s so much support, humor, you know, Um, there is extremes of experience.
You get to understand so much more about yourself and the way that you relate in good ways and bad. So that’s really the peak for me when I hear someone say like, You saved my sister’s life, or I gave your book to my next door neighbor, and, and they finally left. Those are moments that make it feel like, okay, this is doing what it’s meant to do.
And then I guess the pit is, The vicarious trauma of working in this area is inescapable and it never switches off. And my partner is a psychotherapist, so like . Oh wow. So we’re both like just meshing together our various, you know, vicarious traumas, you know, aside from our own personal traumas. And I can never go back to the way I saw the world before I started working in this area.
And sometimes I feel sad about that, but it wasn’t a real version of the world. And I feel you sort of come out of the cave. And you look around and you’re squinting around and going, Oh my God, I had no idea it looked like this out here. Yeah. And it’s, it’s harder to feel, you know, just that organic sense of joy.
That’s probably what is difficult. But I have a four year old for that, so, um, , oh, she steps in and helps me access that. Oh, you must just come home and just hug her so tight some nights. Oh, totally. She’s beautiful. I’ve never known and. Like it, it’s just I feel like I’m living closer to the surface of life now than than I ever have for you to get one piece of feedback that your book has changed that trajectory of this person’s life, and I can assure you it would be way more than just one.
How lucky are you to have forged a career path where you can say you are literally saving lives? It’s incredible. Yeah, that’s right. And just giving people the language to, to describe something that to them was unspeakable. That’s what I’m sort of doing it for. One of the victim survivor stories that has stuck with you the most.
Gosh, there’s so many, and in fact many of them have become close friends of mine over time. I think. The story that I really have tried to get attention on as much as I can in as many ways as I can is the story of Charlie Mala and Tamika Mala who experienced just, um, thinkable double atrocity of a baby being murdered by Tamika’s partner.
And also being absolutely, apparently treated by police. Who disregarded the Mala family when they went to report, Charlie being abducted, treated them well, I would say, you know, I think it’s pretty clear that racist treatment of this family who are indigenous from WA and. I will never get over seeing Charlie’s photo for the first time after being really immersed in his story.
It’s the first time I’ve ever had something akin to a panic attack working on a story because I had a child pretty much the same age. I just couldn’t integrate what had happened to him, to Tamika, to his family. So I’ve just tried to do what I can to get attention on it because they are still. Lacking any type of accountability from WA police and from the government for how they were treated.
Wow. Oh, that sounds absolutely tragic. Where can people go to find out more about this story? Yeah. Well, so they’re represented by the National Justice Project and there is a change.org petition for the Mala family. So they can look that up if they want to see the story that was on. See what you made me do on episode two.
There’s also been quite a few stories written about it since I think it’s probably the most shocking story that I’ve ever come across. I’m gonna change tact for a moment cuz I do wanna get to know you a little bit better as well. We’ve got a couple more questions in our fast few. Tell me the TV series that you are into at the moment.
I hope it’s something light and fluffy like Bridgeton, please. . It was going to be. , but then we went, um, with cheer about the cheerleading in America, uh, on Netflix. Oh, I haven’t seen that. Is it like a doco? Oh, it’s phenomenal. Yeah. It’s, there’s two seasons and it’s about this like, you know, not, not the cheerleading that probably most of us are familiar with, but the absolutely like acrobatic cheerleading and goes right into this, you know, this one team in Texas.
And their buildup towards the national finals. And um, it is phenomenal. I mean, I have like little pre-existing interest in cheerleading, um, , which might shock you. Were you one of the RARA girls? No, I was, was not, I was not into score either. You don’t strike me as being a cheerleader. I have to say Jess. No, but you know, but these ones are not either.
And it’s like the, just the athleticism, but also the incredible personal stories of all these cheerleaders is just phenomenal. And. So well, and season two is just as good as the first good. I am totally adding that to my, uh, lineup, when Briton’s finished book that you love. Oh, book that I love. Well, the book that I, I think changed my life, um, particularly in this area is, um, Charlotte Woods, The Natural Way of.
Nonfiction. No, it’s fiction, but he very much feels like nonfiction about essentially women who make complaints about sexual harassment or abuse. Like sent out to a remote homestead in the middle of Australia and basically like kept prisoner. It was written quite a few years ago. It’s like Charlotte Wood was channeling.
So like, Like it is so powerful if she never writes anything else again or she has written several things since then. But if she never writes anything again, her life’s work is done as far as I’m concerned. Done. Okay, great. I watched Maid a little while ago. Have you seen that series made? I haven’t seen it and only not because it’s not great and I’ve.
Fantastic things about it, but because I’m so steeped in this every day, , that’s why I come home and watch cheer, and I did watch Byron Bays, I have to admit. Uh oh my God. . So, Oh, I love that you said that because you are one of the most intelligent, articulate women I’ve ever met. To know that you would go all out on Byron Bays or Maps or whatever it might be, IED it.
Oh my goodness. I even, I, and I went like, you know, bottom of the barrel, I went and like, Like half a tub of ice cream left in the freezer, and I was like, You know what? I’m going all way. Oh, see guys, I’m finishing this ice cream tub and I’m watching the last two episodes. So yeah, we’ll go there. Oh, I love that.
Well look, for those of you listening that are also curious about publications that kind of help you understand this world of domestic. Maid is such a great series to watch, and it’s not violent. Violent, although there’s a couple of violent scenes, but not too bad. But oh my goodness, having not dealt with DA in my life, it was the first publication that I came across that I was like, Okay, I get it now.
I get why she goes back. I get that feeling of isolation. Right music. What’s on repeat on your music playlist? Cause I have a four and a half year old, um, . Your playlists do get a bit distorted. Yeah, they do, don’t they? Spotify gets very confused. It does get very confused. But the funny thing is, and there’s been a lovely crossover.
Parents will get this back to the Outback, which is on Netflix. It’s an Australian film. Its soundtrack is phenomenal. I love the soundtrack. Is it? It is so smart. Oh, okay. And so sassy and when you listen to it like be careful, like obscenity warnings in the car. In fact, my four year old has started asking for the song when the was trying to get back to the zoo, which like, cuz we listened to it one time and it’s like, it’s hard.
Scott, bitch, this bitch, you know, they did not use that in the movie. So she’s just listening in the backseat, loving it, knowing that all these words, she’s not allowed to say. Absolutely love that soundtrack. And so it’s just very handy to have that crossover. Anything that, you know, ticks a box for the kids and the adults I think is sculpt.
Totally. And you know, most kids maybe. Quite clock onto the bitch. This shit that . Yeah. You’ve probably got about another six to 12 months before there can’t be any exploitives. Yeah. They’re just gonna start rolling them out. Yeah. Finally, what do you do for fun? What do I do for fun? Well, like. I’m really lucky to live pretty close to the beach.
I’ve never been a massive beach person, but I did start going just like on huge walks and then just charging into the ocean and that just felt like the most amazing sort of restorative thing to do. And you know, it’s hard like when you say What do you do for fun? Cuz like, Working parenting. There’s not a lot of time for fun, you know?
And especially with Covid and stuff. Fun has felt very edged out, but I’d say that’s how I’ve felt the most release rather than fun. It’s been total release, like a reset. It’s almost like you dive through that ocean and it’s just like resets you no matter what day you’ve had or the day you’re about to have.
It is a great immersive feeling, but you gotta find time for fun, Jess, especially with what you do. I’ll try. Honey, what you’re doing is unbelievable and we all thank you so much for shedding light on it for you know, people such as myself who may not have experienced, and then of course for all the women steeped in it, surrounded by it at the moment, the women’s lives that you’ve saved.
We thank you. My pleasure. Thanks Melia.
Dr. Will Bol Shavitz or Dr. B or the Gut Health MD on Instagram is a New York Times best selling author and one of my fas to speak to on the topic of gut health. He speaks on global podcasts such as Rich Roll and the Plant Proof Podcast with Simon Hill. So I’m always really chuffed and honored that he’s happy to come on my humble little.
This is my second time interviewing him and like last time I walk away learning so much more, having my mind blown at just how incredible our body is and how important the food that we eat is for our health and our mood. This episode really was for me, a motivator to just keep improving our diet or sort our diet out.
Episodes like this though are challenging to balance between the deep research and science with practical take home message. Especially when I’ve only got 30 minutes to do it. I hope I did a good job. Have a listen, let me know. Did I go too nerdy? Did I not go nerdy enough? It’s a really difficult line to draw.
He also likes to really nerd out as I do. And I remember in that interview sitting there thinking, Oh, do I probe more into what he’s talking about? Or do I bring it back up to what this really means practically? And I guess the other challenge here is that we’re all also looking for that quick fix solution.
That magical ingredient or that we might not know about already. And of course we know that it’s never that easy or simple. Nevertheless, we covered a lot on how our gut affects our mood, what causes us to become more sensitive to certain foods, especially after having kids. What are histamine, why we need to know about them and his favorite foods and supplements for gut health or healing our gut or improving our gut health, and to get to know Dr.
B a little better. Here are a few quickies I asked him at the very end. Enjoy.
Oh,
Dr. B, what was the last meal you ate? We have a new baby at home. My sister-in-law brought over a delicious vegetable curry with rice. Oh, love it. What’s your favorite recipe in your fiber fueled cookbook? All right. The lot of good ones. I love all of them, but Spicy Peanut Tempe lettuce wraps. Oh, that sounds so good.
Definitely trying. Favorite TV series that you’re into at the moment? It’s based on a book under the Banner of Heaven is showing in the United States right now. And it’s fascinating cause it’s based on a true story. Very interesting. Is it set like in the current day or? It is, It’s uh, it’s kind of a true crime story and it involves the Mormon church and there’s a lot of history behind the Mormon church that like, frankly I didn’t know, so I’m learning a.
But then at the same time, really the story is not so much about Mormonism, it’s about religious extremism, which could affect many different forms of religion book that you love. I’m a big nerd. . No, I’m a big nerd. I’ve been studying history, uh, recently quite a bit. And I just finished this book under the Summer Moon, and it’s about the history of both Native Americans and early settlers in the west of the United States.
And frankly, it’s just kind of sad on all sides, but it does share sort of the story of how things came to be in the 19th century in the United States between Native Americans and early Settl. I guess it helps you understand, you know, then how things have evolved to the position that they’re in now as well.
There were so many moments that I was like, Oh my gosh, that explains so much. And it would be probably hard for an Australian audience to fully capture, because if you’re not American, you don’t really see many of these little things. But it’s still a fascinating book. What’s on repeat on your music playlist?
uh, the true nerd comes out now. , Or not, or not. Are we gonna be like heavy rap, heavy metal? All right. Look, I like nineties music. That’s cuz that’s my generation. I like nineties music. So I like, I’ve been doing a lot of Pro Jam, a lot of Smashing pumpkins, a lot of Snoop Dog and Dr. Dre recently, but then with my daughter, we do Taylor.
So, Oh yeah. Shake it off baby. Love it. That’s what we do. What do you do for exercise? I have this awesome trainer and he yells at me. He’s very militant and I . It’s kind of fun, like I go there and he’s just like yelling at me and I’m doing exercise. And you just do what he tells you? Yeah, and, And I go harder than usual cuz I don’t wanna upset him even more.
Like he’s already upset, so I love it. What about for fun? What do you do for fun? I’ll be honest, this is, I’m a little embarrassed to admit this, but you know, in the United States we like American football, right? It’s different than Ossie football. Mm-hmm. , although there’s some similarities, but we do fantasy football.
What’s that? So fantasy football, it is like where basically you get together with your friends. Like, I have these friends from 2006. We’ve been doing this, you know, for 16 years now. Every year you pick your players, like, I got this guy and I got this guy and I got this guy. And then every single Sunday during football season, you watch the games and you see how your players score.
It’s basically like taking the statistics of what happens during real life football games. And then like converting it into a score and you’re going head-to-head against your friend and you’re talking trash to them over text message. Oh my God. And you get these moments where you win and you’re like, Yeah, I won.
And then you get these moments where like, this is gonna be so silly, but I think it’ll still land, is that I was in the championship game and I had this guy that all season, everyone in my league was like, that guy’s going to drop the ball. He’s going to mess you up. I guarantee it. And it was the very last.
I was in the championship and this guy, Antonio Brown, he quit in the middle of a game. , this is never, I’ve never heard of this before. , he took off his jersey, threw it into the crowd, and then he waved to the crowd as he walked off with no shirt on. I’ve never seen it. Oh my God. And that’s how I lost in the championship.
Fantasy football. All right, well there you go. I don’t think I’m gonna be trying that anytime soon, but that does sound like fun with your mates. I love it. All right, Thanks, Dr. B. Thanks so much.
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