Most of us want to live longer, healthier years. Research is indicating that our longevity is no more just about the genetic cards we are dealt, but actually we have more controllable elements at our finger tips than ever before. Host Amelia Phillips and Dr Norman Swan, a multi-award winning producer, broadcaster and Physician journalist, discuss the latest longevity and anti-aging research. They also discuss the latest on supplements and therapies such as Metformin, NAD, NMN, resveratrol, mTOR and rapamycin. They discuss simple lifestyle changes to diet, exercise, and education that can dramatically improve longevity, plus the anti-aging skin treatments, and BAG (brain age gap) therapies, to protect our brain from the effect of ageing.
So You Want To Live Younger Longer Dr Norman’s New Book, now available.
Badie Winkle: Instagram granny – Amelia wants to have her energy at 94!
David Sinclair Lifespan Podcast: Deep dive into longevity medicines.
About the guest:
Dr Norman Swan, a multi-award winning producer, broadcaster and Physician journalist. He hosts two popular podcasts; The Health Report and Coronacast, which won a walkley award last year. He is one of Australia’s most trusted doctors appearing regularly in the media to help disseminate the large amount of confusing health research.
Below is an unedited transcript of the podcast episode:
I get this message the other day from a friend, omg, you’ve got to try N A D IV infusions. They are life changing. I’ve got so much more energy and clear thinking. So N A D infusions is where you go into a clinic, you get hooked up on an IV drip for around 30 minutes, where a concoction of vitamins, minerals, amino acids are delivered intravenously.
So N A D, for example, is a co-enzyme. That’s all the rage in the anti-aging circles at the moment. So is this crazy talk that we are hooking ourselves up to drips with the goal of living longer or in 30 years time? Well, would this be all the rage where we’re hooked up each night on our own iv, sitting on the couch at home while we watch our favorite?
TV shows wearing our VR virtual reality masks.
This is Healthy Her with Amelia Phillips. After we have kids, our mortality can come into sharp focus. We begin this glorious tug of war between wanting to live for longer i e longevity. But also wanting to look younger. I e anti-aging. We wanna live longer, but we want those years to be quality years. I love to think of Batty Winkle.
You’ve gotta look her up on Instagram. She’s this hilarious granny. I wanna be like Batty Winkle. That’s for sure. Research is indicating that our longevity is no more just about the genetic cards that we are dealt, although that’s a big factor, but we actually have more controllable elements at our fingertips than ever before.
To help show us what these controllables are is Dr. Norman Swan, a multi-award winning producer, broadcaster, and physician journalists. He hosts two popular podcasts, the Health Report and Corona Cast, which won a Walkley award last. He’s one of Australia’s most trusted doctors appearing regularly in the media to help disseminate the large amount of mostly confusing health research.
He’s pulled together a lot of that research into a fascinating and entertaining guide, so you wanna live younger, longer. Dr. Norman, thank you so much for coming on to Healthy Her Today. Thanks, Emilia. Please call me Norman. Let’s look at centenarians currently in long lived Japan. There’s only actually four in every 10,000 people that live past a hundred and Italy’s not far behind, which actually surprised me.
I thought that number would be higher. However, by 2050, that proportion is expected to have grown to four in, not in every 10,000, but four in every 1000 people, which is great news. And in Australia, the growth sits around 6% per year and is four times faster than the general population growth. So what’s driving this rapid growth, and particularly for older old people?
Well, you talked about genes earlier on in your intro. We used to think that to live through an old age, you had to have, uh, genes. In other words, you had to have parents who lived. And there’s no question that’s good news to have those parents. It turns out that it only really matters at the extremes of old age.
Our longevity has increased, or our lifespan has increased so much that maybe 50 years ago, the extreme of old age was in your nineties going towards a hundred. So people who got to a hundred, maybe after World War II or before that, it was a genetic abnormality. It was a nice abnormality. But now genes matter much less.
Maybe only 20, 30% of people who get to a hundred is the genetic influence to get to 105 now, or 110, which is what we start talking about. That’s much more genetic. So the people who had, whatever the genetic abnormality is, that’s where that starts to kick in. So what’s happening is that we are, without really trying too hard, And without having your n e d boosters, you know, in in the local clinic, which we’ll talk about a bit later on, don’t worry.
Well, I’m sure we will. I am sure we will, is that we are actually reaching ages where we are biological age. Is much younger than what we’ve got on the clock. Super encouraging. Absolutely. So we talk about 50 being the new 30 and so on, and it’s absolutely true. I don’t have the, the statistics are in, so you wanna live younger longer, but if you’re a 50 today, your chances of dying in the next 12 months are the same as a 30 year olds, 50 years.
And so it is for a 16 year old, 17 year old, 18 year old, 90 year old, your chances of dying at that age are the equivalent of somebody 15, 20 years younger than you at that, at that age. So it gets a little bit closer to your age when you’re in your nineties, and the only way that’s happening, it was not the only way, but one of the ways that’s happening is that we are physically younger.
At the age of 90 or 80 or 70, then we were 20 years ago, and therefore we are drifting through to our to a hundred and beyond simply because of a lot of different things that have happened. To us as individuals in this, in the community and so on. And you can absolutely see that. I mean, when you are talking to an 80 year old today or a 60 year old, sometimes you cannot tell you’re talking to someone you really don’t know.
Is this person 40 or 65? It can be really, really hard to tell. And yes, some of that can be more, you know, aesthetic enhancements, . But I’ve certainly noticed it anecdotally out in the wider world and I have to say, I want to be one of those centenarians. I’ve got a lot of life in me left. Yeah, me too. Good.
You and me together. There are factors outside of my control, obviously genetics being one of them. Before you go on to that question, this is what one point I want to make mm-hmm. , is that people often wonder if you look. Older than you are. Are you actually older than you are biologically? And if you look younger than you are or how you expect to be, are you actually younger?
And, and this excludes people who’ve had work done. So let’s you know, having work done. Okay. All right. Real housewives, you’re out of this. That’s right. Break breaks the rules and it turns out almost certainly if you look. On the outside, you are almost certainly younger on the . Yeah, that would be my hypothesis.
Of course. I’m glad you said that. Why would a hundred percent agree with that? So what is within my control and what should I be doing to help me become one of those centenarians? So what I talk about in, So you wanna live Younger, longer, is it’s multi face. So at random, let me just talk through. Yeah. I realize that’s a huge question to ask.
You could probably talk for days on it, but what are the top of the list? Top of the list is you do not want to die of an avoidable cause of death. So that you’ve gotta do, you’ve gotta get the basics right. So from your twenties and thirties onwards, you wanna know what your blood pressure is. You wanna know what your cholesterol is.
So if you’re a young mother listening to this and your partner’s young and you think, I’ve got time to wait until I get full checkup. Nope. In your twenties, at least once, you wanna know what your cholesterol is and what you wanna know, what your blood pressure is, at least, so that if they’re raised, you know, you need to change your, your lifestyle, because then if you could pick.
Raise blood pressure or raise cholesterol, then that will save your life later on in life. Even if you need medication. And it’s unlikely you will, but even if you did that, so get the basics right When you get to the age that you need cancer screening, cerval, cancer, breast cancer screening, bowel, get that done, you do not wanna die of.
That’s a deal breaker in terms of living younger, longer, cuz it’s, you’re gonna die sooner than you are. Know who died of what at what age in your. Mm. I thought that was a really interesting and and great point. You know, ask your parents. What about my aunties and uncles, my grandparents? Yeah, I think that’s a really good.
If there’s a pattern of people getting cancer or heart disease or even dying, you don’t know why. When they’re under 60, you wanna start thinking, Is there something running in my family? Do I need to get my genes checked? And that could save your life. Mm-hmm. , such as a BRCA two gene for breast cancer is, is one great example of that.
Yeah. Or the lynch syndrome, and then it’s about. Your smoking is poison vaping. Are we gonna throw vaping in there as well? Well, probably, But the, the, the proof isn’t there, but smoking burn plants are not good for you. Whatever the plants might be. And we don’t know what’s in, you know, what’s in vaping is not meant to be heated up to that.
And you really do not want to be doing any of that stuff. Sunlight does. Actually do more than age your skin. There’s an ev. There is some evidence that excessive sunlight probably starts an aging process under the skin, which can affect the rest of your body. So you really do want to be careful with sunlight.
So these are things that people don’t think about. Then there’s the brain body connection. Your brain runs the show and we tend to think of our brain and mind as separate from body, but they’re not. They’re integrated and the brain is the master control center and our brain is attuned to take in what’s going on in our environment, which is, you know, uh, air pollution.
It’s our relationships, it’s stress. It’s all those things that are going on in our environment and if our brains are overactivated, they over activate the rest of the body and the immune system and you can actually speed up aging with chronic stress and mental health issues. So this sounds soft and na Pammy do I, you know, But mental wellbeing.
Psychological wellbeing is actually a really important part, an aging thing. So going through an N A D booster, which we will come back to. But this stuff is really, really important for actually keeping aging. And then what you eat, the microbiome feeds back to the brain. So it’s no good going on a five two diet necessarily.
If what you eat on the five days is crap, you’ve actually got to eat. What I call a, a wide range of bioactive compounds best described as the Mediterranean style diet. Lots of colored vegetables, not a lot of red meat. Uh, fish as your protein, legumes, that’s your protein and so on. And rather than fasting, because your body, the one thing that we know, Can reverse aging or slow it down significantly is calorie restriction.
Yeah. Well, this is a really interesting one because we’ve got this intermittent fasting trend that’s happening with some really promising emerging research. How does fasting and various types or forms of fasting help us with anti-aging? I cover this a lot in the book. So the problem with the five two.
Is that most of the evidence comes from animals. It does stress the system and is of benefit, and it does actually calorie restrict. But the problem with fasting diets, so the five two type diet. I’m gonna differentiate between the five two diet and what I call time restricted eating. I was just about to ask you that, and I think our audience understands the difference between the two, but essentially, Yeah.
Yeah. Okay. Essentially it’s not eating breakfast and fasting until the afternoon and so on. So five, two great. Except that after a while your body adjusts. So the quality of the diet that you eat in your five days is really important, and that’s not hugely emphasized for most people. Secondly, your body adjusts to the lower calories and your metabolic rate was done.
So the thing that really helps you to reverse aging or stay young is a calorie gap maybe of about 10%, and that counteract slowly disappears with fasting, unless you’re exercising a lot. So you’ve gotta combine. With fairly intense and extended exercise, which will give you an A calorie burn, which maintains a calorie gap with fasting.
So what do you mean by a calorie gap of 10%? You’re burning more than your eating. Right. Okay, Got it. A calorie deficit, essentially. Yeah, that’s right. Okay. And then time restricted eating has a similar problem, but it has an additional problem is that time restricted eating can shift your body. Because instead of eating three meals a day and having, you know, breakfast, lunch, and dinner, your body is timing itself there.
And there is some evidence that it shifts your body clock. Now for some people that’s a good thing because they need their body clock shifted cause they’ve got bad sleeping habits and what have you. But for some people it’s not. And your body clock turns out to be really important in the aging process as far as getting those circadian rhythms operating in a consistent That’s right.
It goes back to your. Your brain has the master clock and every tissue in your body has got its own clock, and you want them in harmony, and you don’t want those systems in stress. Now, the what I talk about a lot in the book is called homeostasis or bounce, and this explains why the N a D boosters don’t work by themselves.
Then theory, they should work. It’s not entirely bullshit because in animal experiments, when you give these N E D boosters, they do simulate the effect of calorie restric. But that’s in mice. It turns out that in humans, they don’t seem to work. They should, but they don’t. And let me explain probably why this happens.
Is that the body works on balance and for everything, there’s a counteraction. So if your blood pressure goes up, there’s a system for bringing your blood pressure down. If your heart rate goes up, there’s a system bringing your heart rate. If your temperature goes up, there’s a, and your body just likes to stay in homeostasis.
It likes to stay stable. It doesn’t like drama in harmony. That’s. Now what happens is, so you have a youthful profile when you start off life of that balance. Now what happens then is, and for those, you know, we’re not doing visuals here, but what I’m doing is, I’m knocking myself here with the balance there is that with stress, with pollution, with toxins, with high blood pressure, or just things of daily life, that balance gets knock.
Out of kilter, it starts to tilt like the leaning toda, and it starts to tilt towards an aging profile. So instead of a youthful balance, it’s kind of speeding up aging. And if you’ve got somebody who is really aging fast, that tilt has gone a long way. Now, when you give an N E D booster, the balance goes back to a youthful profile.
But what happens is the body. No, no, no. This isn’t the normal balance anymore. The normal balance is the leaning taro pizza. I’m going back to the leaning TA pizza. So you go and get your ad booster and you might feel better. It might be okay, and you might for a couple of days, have the balance back, but then it just ably goes back.
To what if you change your lifestyle though? What if you have decided, okay, I have been giving it a bit of a nudge with those unhealthy lifestyle factors, but now I’ve had my N A D booster and I’m eating well and exercising well. Could you theoretically say that Leaning tower of Piza is going to stay a little more upright and you stay in balance?
That’s what calorie restriction does. It does seem to restore that because it’s complex. You’ve gotta confuse the body and it’s too complex for one thing, like an N e D booster or NN or resveratrol or anti-diabetic drugs that, you know, there’s all sorts of things. Metformin. Yeah, Metformin. So, that’s right.
The one of those things will bring it back. So in, in the future, what, and, And actually if you give a high. And that’s one of the worries with an N A D booster. Ratioing, If you give a high dose of one of these things, you’re not actually giving it to the body in the concentrations the body’s used to dealing with.
You’re giving it like a drug and we don’t know what, how it behaves like the drug. And it’s likely that in the future there might be cocktails of things that work in very low doses and where you confuse the body and you mix it up a little bit. And so we have got no idea really how that. But we do know that exactly as you say, if you change your lifestyle, create a calorie gap.
Don’t eat, do excess calories, eat good bio with compounds that sort of confuses the body and attacks this balance thing from multiple angles and starts to, in a good way, in a good way.
So before I move on to some of those interesting supplement. Uh, and new therapies. Just talking about that calorie restriction. For a lot of moms listening, we have found, and this is the feedback I get from my listeners, is that this time restricted eating works quite well for us moms because we’re often really busy in the morning.
We might exercise early, we might be rushing the kids out the door, and it actually works quite well to. Start eating until mid-morning and maybe have two big meals in the day. You might have your brunch or a big late morning meal, and then you’ll have your family dinner, and then you might just have a little snack in the middle.
Do you see that as a lifestyle factor? Ticking the box of that calorie restriction, but not impacting that body clock you were talking about. It’ll be up to individuals, but there will be some people who might find themselves, Oh, I’m not sleeping as well. Why is that? And if you’re time restricted eating, you should never think about whether or not that’s actually influencing your body clock.
It’s not really very much evidence that that time restricted eating does you any harm or that it speeds up aging. And for some people it does reduce the total number of calories each day, but not for everybody by the. Some people that it doesn’t affect the calorie intake very much at all. You end up taking the same amount of calories.
All you have is a bit of metabolic stress overnight, so you don’t get a free pass with either the five, two or the time restricted eating quality of the food that you eat, amount of food, calories, and so on. Just gotta be careful. Yeah, and I think that idea of asking yourself, when was the last time I felt truly, really hungry, like that tummy rumbling, hungry as opposed to a craving that’s more kind of in your head and all, I feel like a block of chocolate or a packet of chips.
I think it’s a really interesting question to ask yourself. Do I actually go through periods where I do get that grumble in my. Do I eat to a point where I’m just quietly satisfied? Or am I really eating to a point where I’m making myself extra full? And I think there’s some quite simple questions to ask yourself.
Well, let’s move on to some of these emerging supplements. We’ve rattled off a few of them. In your book, I mean, you do unpack N a D and it’s precursor nmn. You’ve got Metformin, resveratrol, mTOR, Romy. Which of these do you think could form part of regular supplementation for people, if at all At the moment?
Not at all would be my answer there. I just don’t think is that right? But I just think that the, the, the, it isn’t in yet, and I’d stick with the holistic thing of trying to control your calories and getting a reasonable amount of exercise. Just have. We’re always looking for a quick win, Norman, come on.
And a quick win is much easier so more people would be able to do it if there is a quick win. So the answer is, I don’t know. And what experiments are occurring is what combinations of these two. So you talked about David Sinclair at Harvard. Yes. So he’s combining this Vero and Metformin cuz you know, to try and do that.
And by the way, the substances, which counteract. , N and N A D are not bad. They’re just the things that are in the balanced formula. So we tend to think of those things as bad for us. In fact, they’re actually sometimes quite good for us. So you don’t wanna abolish them all together. So I, I think that the cocktail is quite complicated and you wouldn’t want to be taking things in too higher dose.
No. And also the risk factors. Uh, I mean, David Sinclair talks about this a lot, and for those of you that are really, really interested in this longevity, David Sinclair, I’m sure you’d know about him, but if not, look him up because he’s got some interesting, takes some of them a bit out there. But he does talk about a lot of these supplements or formulations can be, you know, growth promoting, stimulating cell turnover, things like.
If you’ve got a history of cancer in your family and you start taking a lot of these growth promoting supplements, well that could also be something that potentially could trigger these cancer forming cells. So that’s why you just wanna tread very carefully in this space. And then there’s intriguing things, which may one day have a rule.
For example, there’s been this whole study for a long, long time, many, many years. What happens when you put young tissues into all tissues? So there’s this whole blood transfusion thing giving young blood to older people. You might have heard about that. Now it turns out that from complicated experi all blood from the antlers of deer.
Wasn’t that something Putin was doing, taking something blood out of deer antlers and spinning it up? Well, it might have been, but there are people giving. Crossmatch blood from a younger person to an older person hoping to rejuvenate them. But the, but what, what the research shows is that when you, when you take, say, a young animal and attach it to an older animal, what happens is not that the older animal becomes younger, it’s that the younger animal becomes older.
That’s fascinating. So it’s not so much that there’s something in. And a young person, which is going to be the magic of youth. There’s something in an older person, and I go through all this in the book, which. Actually is increasing aging and when you actually transfer, when you share the blood, it’s not so much the young person rejuvenates the older person.
It’s the older person ages the younger one. Yeah. What’s the mechanism behind that? It’s complicated and there’s a few things going on. There’s cells in the older person, which are not going away, which need to be removed. But there’s also substances there, which defunct cells are producing and are quite toxic.
We call them bad neighbors, and there are emerging techniques that are used for other purposes where you. Try and remove these substances from older people’s blood to allow our stem cells to rejuvenate. Now, this is highly experimental. It would not have you rushing off to Germany to have your blood filtered, but there is something to this and yet, yet to be shown, because some of these techniques are not safe.
But just so that I, I finish the loop on that, transplanting stem cells. Doesn’t work. Why? For exactly the reason I’ve just said. When you put stem cells into an older person, the stem cells get clapped out because of these substances that are in the older person. Yes. And the older person has got stem cells, which if they were relieved of the suppression for whatever reason that they’re getting, would actually rejuvenate.
So we know, for example, that the stem cells in. FRA elderly people can actually be rejuvenated by intense exercise and weight training. So you’re basically saying that instead of getting looking to youth, whatever that may be, to inject something into us, we’re actually better off potentially. The research is suggesting looking at what is aging us and trying to impact or affect that in some way, and the emerging research around that seems to be quite promising.
That’s right and in muscle. The thing that seems to do that at the moment is intense exercise. Oh, fantastic. Listeners, are you jumping up and down about going and doing a bit of intense exercise? Good news though, with intense exercises. You can do it for a shorter period of time, seven minutes, 10 minutes.
It doesn’t have to be, you know, even two minutes. I always call it a fast finisher at the end of a walker, at the end of a workout. Norma, I wanna focus for a moment on things that we can do everyday. People that aren’t willing to fly to Germany or find some deer, cut off their s Well, don’t, don’t do any of that.
Save your money and go to the south of France and lie on the beach. That’s my recommendation. What about my infusions? Should I be going and getting those infusions or no? Save your money on those and spend them on a nice holiday. Or what can we spend our money on? Okay. You’ve talked about some lifestyle factors.
We’ve got that we’re not gonna smoke, we’re gonna do some intense exercise. We’re gonna eat nice, healthy. Let’s talk about some superficial measures. Your thoughts on a sprinkle of Botox, a bit of filler, some skin needling, l e d lights or maybe even a facelift. Is that okay? That’s okay. And if it makes you feel younger, it’s probably going to help you stay younger to from that mental health angle.
Exactly. And you’ve got more control and you like yourself in the mirror, you’re probably gonna be out more. You’re gonna be doing stuff and more active. I’m a critic of going. Gps who’ve been trained as and call themselves cosmetic medic surgeons. I’m a critical of them. Oh, I know. Oh, that’s a whole other episode, isn’t it?
Gosh. Well, if you, That’s right. But if you go to a properly trained plastic surgeon, get it done by somebody with a good reputation who’s been properly trained, I’m not a critic of that at all. What about collagen supplements? There’s such a big collagen, boom, it’s a billion dollar industry now. Should we all be mixing some collagen supplements into our daily smoothies?
No, I don’t think there’s any evidence for that at all. Is there anything you’ve seen that could, that we could be doing today that’s supplementing or something we can pull off the shelf? I’m not pro supplementation because the evidence is that what you get in whole food. Particularly with the cuisine, and we spoke about this the last time we spoke.
When you cook in a pot, and let’s say you pour extra virgin all row in a pot, you add chopped onions, you add garlic, you add tomatoes, and maybe even carrots. Oh, I’m getting hungry thinking about this. That’s the supplement. Yeah, that’s your super food right there. Exactly. There is nothing that you could buy.
In the pharmacy or online that will match the bioactive compounds that you’ve just cooked up under moderate heat, you know, a nice heavy pan on your stove, and then you add the other stuff that goes with it. That’s the super, you just said it for me. The superfood, That’s the supplement. And there’s just nothing that can match that.
So for example, vitamin C, so people take vitamin C and they’ve take in high doses. So vitamin C in very low doses in food is an antioxidant, which helps in whole food. Not a supplement helps to actually slow down aging. Absolutely. It traps those free radicals, which are the little burner molecules that are damaging ourselves.
But as a high dose supplement, it’s a prooxidant. It speeds it up. You’re talking about the super important organ of our brain and things we can do to help protect our brain. This rather important organ from. What can we do? You’re not gonna give me many supplements to take by the sounds of things. Is there anything else we can do to help slow the aging of our brain?
Yes, and I call this the bag brain age cap. So this is the biological age of your brain versus that? No. Your microbiome. Has an influence on your brain and can slow down the aging of your brain. So you want your, you want a highly diverse diet so that you’ve got species of bug in your bowel that are anti-inflammatory, that suppress the immune system.
To the, that part of the immune system that’s gonna fire things up. That’s one thing. The other part of brain aging is that, particularly for young parents, is when your kids grow up, make sure they go on in education. The further you go on in education, the younger your brain is for the rest of your life.
This was a fascinating chapter in your book. Oh my goodness. About the impact of education on aging. And you, you talked about different populations in India, the Taliban, for example. I don’t think any of us would have connected that level of education. And interestingly, in your book you spoke about women as well being a crucial factor.
Level of education and longevity. Exactly. Um, and when, you know, it’s hard when you’re a young parent, but as time goes on, you know, if you change your job and you learn new skills that is gonna keep your brain young, that’s, that closes the brain age gap. I wish there was a pill that you could take that would do it magically, but the, the one pill that does do it magically is if you’ve got high blood pressure and you get it back to normal.
High blood pressure is terribly toxic for, uh, brain aging as is diabetes. So keeping your weight done, keeping your blood pressure done, and maybe one day, one of the things that David Sinclair’s working on or others. We’ll help maybe the ND booster infusion works. The evidence is at the moment that ticking single things like that, even in Vitamin Mixtures is not necessarily the answer.
So in researching your book, were there any major surprises that you came across? Either good surprises or bad surprises? Well, I think one of the surprises was, I suppose I, I kind of expected it, but the fact that genes matter much less than we think that we, that we are in control of our destiny much more than, much more than we think.
That is such a positive message for us, all that really those little habit changes that we struggle to make, but that we are. Making, and let’s face it, listeners, I’m sure we’re all better than we were six months ago. Better than we were six months before that. I was really buoyed to hear that in your book.
It puts us in that feeling of power as opposed to feeling disempowered by the genetic cards we were dealt. Finally then, for a mom listening who wants to set her family, her kids up for a long and healthy life, what would one piece of advice be as a parting gift? Two pieces of advice. Try not let to let ’em get to adolescents overweight cuz that resets their body to be overweight.
And being overweight or obese is pro aging. And encourage them to stay in education for as long as they can. Certainly to finish high school, but ideally to go to university. That is going to have huge effects on keeping them younger, longer, those two things. And of course, Love and firm, but loving parenting where children know their boundaries, they know they’re loved, and children are not growing up with chronic stress.
Cause this is one thing we haven’t touched on, is that chronic stress is not good for aging and kids that grow up good discipline. Knowing boundaries, not having boundaries increases the level of stress in kids in that warm envelope that all the listeners which listen to us are providing for their kids.
But it’s gotta be a firm envelope. That is huge for your child’s brain. Wonderful partying messages. Thank you so much, Norman’s one. You’re welcome.
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