In this new segment, host Amelia Phillips goes behind the scenes, giving an insight into each episode, what went well, what didn’t and helps us get to know the guests a little better. This week she dissects Dr Norman Swan and Sean Szeps’ episode and airs some personal questions she asked each guest.
Below is an unedited transcript of the podcast episode:
Welcome to my first Ever Behind my guest episode. I really wanted to give you some insight into the episodes I record, and to show you another side of my guests. Because my interviews sit around that 30 minute mark, I often don’t really have time to get to know my guests, especially if the topic is very fact.
So in today’s episode, we’re going to hear from Sean Zips and Dr. Norman Swan. Two very different conversations, but equally fascinating people. My chat with Sean was an interesting one on what it’s like being a gay dad in a mostly hetero parenting world. I actually expected this to be a really kind of fun and lighthearted chat, but a few minutes into it, it really hit me how hard it can be, and I was just so appreciative of how honest Sean was with the internal struggles deciding on whether he was actually worthy of being a dad.
He called it internal homophobia. My goal with this conversation was to firstly ask all the questions that we might wanna ask a same sex couple, but don’t necessarily feel comfortable doing it. And secondly, it was to ask him what we can do to help make same sex couples feel more included in just what is predominantly a heterosexual parenting world.
I love it when these episodes take on a different energy than I’d anticipated, and I certainly loved how raw and honest and emotionally got at points. But anyway, here’s a fast few behind my guest questions with Sean Z Zips.
All right, Sean, tell me the last meal that you ate. The last meal that I ate was a mushroom, spinach and capsicum omelet. For breakfast this morning, . Oh, that sounds so good. With a little hot sauce and a little pesto. Very nice. Oh, I love that. That’s delicious. Did you cook it yourself or did you head out for breaking?
Yes, I am currently in isolation at the moment, so everything is being prepared by myself. TV series that you’re really into at the moment, I’m obsessed with Survivor. I would argue that I might be the country’s premier expert of all things Survivor. You do not strike me as a survivor fan. That is totally left field.
Why do you love it so much? I’m a strategist at heart, so I studied psychology initially at university, and then I moved into becoming a communications specialist, and I’ve spent the last 11 years of my life being a brand strategist. So I’m like quite obsessed with the human mind. I love looking in isolation like a Petri dish and figuring out how people thrive and survive.
I love that the show is. . It’s so strategic and it literally looks like a microcosm of the real world. Like what types of people thrive and what types of people fail in social situations. I love that we get to watch Buff Men Band together only to be picked off one at a time by a bunch of strong strategic women who are, you know, who are being overlooked.
I love that gay people always slip through the cracks cuz people think they’re not threats. I love. That we think weak people, because they’re not really strong at physical things are, shouldn’t be around only for them to dominate mentally. I just find the show really fascinating as like a, as a research study for what it’s like to be a human.
Yeah, like a social experiment. Totally. Uh, tell me. Your phone rings and the producer from Survivor calls and says, You’re, uh, you’re invited on the next series. Are you in or out? I’m waiting. I have been waiting. I’ve been making it very clear that I’m ready, willing and able. My husband is prepared. My family will fly out tomorrow.
I want to be on Survivor. Actually, let’s just have it on record. I will be one day. . Oh my gosh. Producers listening. Get him on the island now. Okay. I’m. All right. Moving on a book that you love. This is actually a really great kind of segue from the conversation we just had. I know when you’re a minority in this world, it’s really hard.
To be educated about your history. This is true for Aboriginal people in this country who don’t feel that they’re learning as much about their upbringing and their culture’s history as say, white people do. Yeah. And as a queer person living in this world, and growing up in the eighties and nineties, I just didn’t know anything about my, my community where we came from, the pioneers that fought before us, and.
I literally brought them with me, but I’m basically spent all of last year I decided I was only gonna read queer literature. I’ve read about 110 books that, that are specifically focused on the history of our community. Oh, I’d love to know what, especially for naive people such as myself who, who aren’t familiar with the full history.
Which one should we read? Well, I’m currently reading the Deviance War, the Homosexual versus the United States of America. It’s written by Eric cni and it’s the most conclusive. History, basically I’ve ever read. It tracks Frank Kaney, who was the first person to ever go up against the United States Department of Defense who was firing in masses.
Anyone who is considered to be a deviant, which was the word that we used for homosexuals back when we were confident and was a disease. But throughout the each page, it just basically frames the foundation. Every bit of information that the masses knew about homosexuals through the 18 hundreds, all the way up into the fifties, sixties and seventies when it became more popular just to.
Take a seat and sit back and understand that medical practitioners were saying it was a disgusting disease, that politicians were saying that people should be mindful and fearful of us cuz we were more likely to be traitors to the government just to see on paper and understand the history of, of what homosexuals had to do and how they had to go underground and the lies that they had to live and the families that were destroyed because of that indoctrination.
I’m just flipping through the pages and really feel like it’s integral to my develop. Integral to me being able to better educate my children on our history. But what it also does is it just reminds me that I am blessed enough to be born at the right place and the right time in human history that I get to, that I don’t have to live this life.
The deviance versus the United States of America, is that right? Yeah, it’s called the Deviance War, the homosexual versus the United States of America. What’s on repeat on your music playlist? Right. I mean, I would love to pretend that I listen to music, um, by myself, but basically I’m with my children all the time.
So what’s on repeat, and I’m not mad about it, is the Encanto soundtrack. Ah, we don’t talk ba brun. No, no, no. obsessed. The, the what’s the fresh one? Pressure, like a drip, drip, drip that on the other stuff. Whoa. . I love that. I think it’s great. Oh, it’s such a great movie in canto. Oh, it’s fantastic. Yeah. So that’s on repeat.
Thank you. Disney . Thank you for being honest about that. Not trying to be too cool. , what’s the worst part about being a dad? Other parents . I didn’t even have to, I didn’t even have to wait a second. Because that’s the worst part about being a parent in general is like other parents are terrible, Everyone is judgmental.
It’s the competition Olympics. Everyone is constantly picking apart where you’re at. Developmentally. The pressure, constantly talking about it, making us feel weird about it. All the, I know that that is the answer for a lot of women and I’m sure there are a ton of women like preach. Yes, that’s exactly how I feel.
But it’s true for. As well. Like the only other kind of left hook answer that I guess is more specifically to men is that we’re undervalued and under and a little underappreciated. Obviously the world is getting better and and women are getting the recognition. I believe they deserve that. It is really difficult to juggle so many things and take on all the burden of parenting, but I often feel over the course of the last 10 years as men, Been forced, really pushed to step forward and be more actively involved, that there’s still a lot of negative press in the media that lumps all men together.
Yeah, I’ve noticed that too actually. It’s funny you say that, and it’s a really delicate balance because, you know, women have been such a minority and so I, I get it, but there have been a few times where I’ve thought, Oh, that’s a bit harsh on. Well, I get it. Listen, I, I completely understand it. The, the trauma that has gone completely unheard for decades and decades, if not centuries, of the pressure that women have not only had to physically go through to get birth, but then also all of the burden of keeping the house and.
Maintaining their husband’s sanity and also keeping all the children alive and educating them and making sure that they’re what, Like that’s a lot of pressure. And men have basically skated by being completely uninvolved really, until the seventies, which is basically yesterday. And so I get that, but when I read an article a year ago, I was just like scr, and I won’t say the publication, but it just said like, I’m sick of bad dad.
Like, Here’s what you need to know if you’re a bad dad or something like that. That’s click bait as well. Click. That’s, but is that making the world a better place? I often just wonder like is, is you taking your frustration with your husband, which might be completely justified and maybe he is really bad, but then lumping all men together, like, is that gonna make men better?
Is that gonna make you come together unified so that you can best parent as a couple? My, my focus, my understanding of. Is the best way to raise young children is to do so by respecting and supporting your partner’s needs so that they can respect and support yours so that you can best parent together.
Yep. You sort of lumped into the bad dad bucket or of, you know, of course you’re not gonna be able to do that. Or of course you’re, you know, taking the easy road. Yeah. I don’t like that. Lumping, lumping everyone together. Parenting is such a unique experience for all. Final question. Your favorite part of being a dad?
I. A really big fan of like the circle of life, the continuation, the understanding of really who my parents were and what they had to go through, and therefore, An understanding of what their parents had to go through and their parents before them. I think it’s a really beautiful gift if you’re willing to look into it, to understand that your child is not just an extension of you and your partner, but also an extension of an entire long, beautiful family tree that is so much further historically than you can wrap your head around.
Mm-hmm. , it’s a little story, but I also wanna say my husband’s family survived the OC. To make their way to Australia, and my family escaped Cuba under Castro’s regime by hiding in a cargo pit of a plane on both sides of our family. The grit of survival of powering through communism, like of powering through the worst regime that is killed in ti.
Millions of, I don’t actually don’t know how many people died during the Holocaust, unfortunately, so I’m not gonna even pretend to say that number, But terrible situations. And there were people, our family members who. We want a better life for the next generation of our family, and we get to continue that for them.
We get to do that. That’s a gift, and it’s a beautiful, beautiful thing to see my children. Doing things that I once did that my mother once did, that her mother once did, we are passing to, It’s a legacy. Yeah. It’s a beautiful, beautiful legacy. And I just, whenever I see my son do something that my dad used to do, I’m reminded that this is so much bigger than just me.
Yeah. And I find that really empowering. . Yeah. And you know, passing that on to your kids as they get older and them learning those, you know, those stories in the rich tapestry of your own personal family tree, I think really embeds their roots and their self-worth and their self-esteem to build a, a beautiful story around them, their family, you know, their culture, where they come from.
That’s a great part of being a parent. Absolutely. Thank you so much. Thank you.
Dr. Norman Swan needs no introduction. He’s won multiple Walkley awards for medical journalism, and he hosts. To popular podcasts, the Health Report and Corona Cast, which by the way, won a Walkley award last year. He’s also an author having pulled a lot of his research over his decades into a fascinating and very entertaining guide.
So you think you know what’s good for you? I was really lucky actually, to get this interview with him cuz he’s super busy and he’s in hot demand right now. But this also happened to be my first interview in my new home studio. So I had a brand new mic, new recording software, and of course I happened to get a v p guest for this first one.
I was just so worried I was gonna press the wrong button and not record his voice. But luckily the tech gods shined down upon us that day. And by the way, there was also this crazy massive thunderstorm going on at the same time. . And then the little cherry on the cake at the end was after we stopped recording, he.
He and he said, You know, in his gorgeous Scottish accent, you’re a really good interviewer. So anyway, that of course made my day. We spent a lot of the time talking about the decision to vaccinate our kids or not, which I’m really glad about. I also really liked the differentiation he cleared up for us.
Between parents who are asking the questions and showing concern and that they should not be lumped into that kind of anti-vaxxer category, we should be perfectly comfortable to ask questions. The second half, I ask some of the more common questions around health and wellbeing and you know, the really popular questions that a lot of us are wanting to know the straight facts on, and I wanted to get his take on those question.
We didn’t get much time to talk about his personal life at all, but if you do wanna hear more on that search Norman Swan on ABC’s Conversations, podcasts, and you’ll hear more on his personal life, which is very fascinating story, including his near death experience and one of his kids as well. In the meantime, here are some quickies that I.
Dr. Norman Swan after our interview,
what was the last meal you ate? The last meal I ate was a really cool Japanese meal last night in a little Japanese bar in Elaine Way in Sydney, and I go there a fair bit. The food is great, great atmosphere, and that was my meal last night. Oh, that sounds amazing. Yeah. TV series that you’re into at the moment.
Well, I’m trying to finish off my second book, so I’m not, I’m trying to avoid it, but the last one I watched was War of the World, which is the HG Wells story that he wrote, Turn of the Century, 19 20th Century, which was really pressing about the future and the future of technology and really well made cool War of the World.
I’ll have to look that one up. Yeah. It’s on ABC Eye view. Book that you love? Well, I, I love the one I’m reading at the moment and I, the one I loved growing up when I, I got obsessed with the Odyssey of Homer when I was about seven or eight years old. I find a children’s verse in my primary school library in Scotland, and I read that over and over and over again.
I just loved Greek mythology and so on. That’s, uh, a favorite book that I ultimately, So there’s a children’s version, a children’s version of The Odyssey of Homer. Yep. Yep. Oh, okay. There you go. Parents, I’m gonna absolutely look that up for my Lockie. I’m sure he’d love that. And, okay. And what was the other book you were gonna say?
Oh, the one I’m reading at the moment is actually, I’m a political junkie, so it’s called Master of the Game, and it’s by an Australian who actually became an American. And, um, was the American ambassador to Israel as an, as you know, originally born in Australia. Oh, wow. Yeah, and he, he’s been involved in Middle East diplomacy and he’s just written a book about Henry Kissinger called Master of the Game, which is about Middle East diplomacy.
So I’m a bit of a geek when it comes to, um, politics. Oh my goodness. You’re . You are one of the most well-rounded men that I know. medicine, politics, journalism. What about your music tastes? What’s on repeat on your playlist? Female jazz singers that just keep on drifting them down a crawl. The older ones who are no longer with us, Siron, Ella Fitzgerald, Nina, Simone, Do you know I went and saw Diana crawl at the Opera House?
Gotta be 15 years ago. I absolutely loved her music. Performing publicly. Major disappointment. The other one who’s disappointing publicly in the public broad sense is Nora Jones. So I love Nora Jones. Love Nora Jones. And I went to, I was actually my son who lives in Washington. We met up in Paris couple, two or three years ago, and there’s a big Nora Jones concert on and we went and it.
The music was great, but really not performative. You know, very laid back, very like Diana crawl in many ways. Do you know my theory, my theory behind this is you’ve got some musicians who are performers who are there, who are drawing the energy from their crowd and they’re performing for their crowd. And then you’ve got other musicians who are just so into the music that they almost retreat and become internal, like Diana’s hair, like she had this Bob at the time.
Covered her face almost like she was trying to shield herself. Yeah, I think she was actually probably a real introvert. And maybe that’s what makes her music so powerful to listen to, but you know, not necessarily to go and watch. No, that’s right. And Nora Jones was exactly the same. Didn’t look at the audience pretty much once.
What do you do for exercise? Depends on, on the weather. So I go running and I try and do an hour. Can I just ask how old you are? Very rude question. I’m 68. And that you’re still running? Have you run your whole life? No, I started running when I was about 40. Most of the people that are like over 60, that run started later in life.
I don’t know. Audience proved me wrong, but you’re lucky. I, Anyway, I interrupted you. Continue. I think people don’t run through pain enough. Um, I think that you’ve gotta run through the pain and just keep doing it. But in an hour session I’ll do running for maybe 45 minutes and then I’ll do muscle strengthening.
So I’ll do dips, abdo. Yeah. And so on. And when it’s lousy weather, like today, I will do a couple of seven minute workouts. Brilliant. What about for fun? Does Dr. Norman Swan do a lot for fun? Besides going to sushi restaurants with friends? It wasn’t the sushi restaurant. It was a cool Japanese. Japanese, Yeah.
So, The answer is what I do for fun. You can say you don’t. No, no, no. You’re a busy man. No, no, it’s nothing. That’s what I do for fun. I’m really good at doing nothing, and preferably on a beach in a country where they don’t speak English. Um, so I, I love nothing better than a European beach holiday under an umbrella with a nice restaurant nearby, and I’m reading a book.
There’s no pressure to do anything going, seeing a gallery or anything like that, that that gives me a lot of pressure. And in Australia, I enjoy going to the beach and doing nothing at the beach cuz my, the rest of my life is fooled with massive stuff and I’ve just gotta do nothing. All right guys. If you see Norman laying on the beach, do not go up to him and ask for a selfie.
Okay? Cuz he, you’ll be disrupting his fun. No, that’s alright. , thank you so much. You’re welcome.
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